Baseball Steroid Thread

[papsrus]

Enhance performance?

So does aspirin, Ibuprofen, cortisone shots and that boo-boo juice trainers routinely spray on hitters nailed by a pitch.

Why people like Dan continue to ignore the obvious is beyond me.

Well yes. Band Aids, water and getting enough sleep enhance performance, too. Clearly there's a difference between aspirin and steroids, both in their legality and their effects on performance, unless you're aware of some recognized study that claims that there isn't.

[Tim McG]

Enhance performance?

So does aspirin, Ibuprofen, cortisone shots and that boo-boo juice trainers routinely spray on hitters nailed by a pitch.

Why people like Dan continue to ignore the obvious is beyond me.

Well yes. Band Aids, water and getting enough sleep enhance performance, too. Clearly there's a difference between aspirin and steroids, both in their legality and their effects on performance, unless you're aware of some recognized study that claims that there isn't.

The legality of steriods is a separate issue from perfomance enhancement.

To even suggest that steriods make you hit home runs or throw strikes is sheer foolishness.

Hence, my point.

[papsrus]

I didn't say anything about home runs or strikes, but ...

Why don't you serve up some medical/scientific evidence (of the widely accepted variety) that roids don't have any effect whatsoever on the physical abilities of athletes and we'll take it from there.

happy hunting.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

c'mon now ... everybody knows the sole intended purpose of steroid use in baseball is to make cups roomier.

[Dan Gould]

To even suggest that steriods make you hit home runs or throw strikes is sheer foolishness.

Greater stupidity you will never find. Happy hunting indeed. I mean, Jesus Christ Timmy, everybody in the fucking baseball universe understands that strength adds distance to fly balls. How many fly balls die at the warning track? With a little added "juice" - from a bottle or from the gym with no chemical help - how many fly into the stands? This ain't fucking rocket science.

And pitching isn't just throwing strikes you moronic joke. Going from 92-94 back up to 97-98 doesn't help a pitcher? Having the stamina to pitch deeper into games doesn't help? No one ever said that steroids help you throw strikes you fucking tool.

[Brad]

There's no point arguing with a closed mind, which indeed is a terrible thing to waste.

[Brownian Motion]

There's no point arguing with a closed mind, which indeed is a terrible thing to waste.

A closed mind is a terrible thing to waste? Nonsense! "Goodspeak" is not wasting his closed mind. He is putting it to what I imagine he thinks is good use here at Organissimo, acting as unpaid apologist for the odious, steroid-fueled Bonds

[Noj]

'Roids aside, there's no apologizing for still sporting the 1980's single earring look.

In fact, the entire practice of men wearing earrings should be abandoned. Give the giant diamond earrings back to your sister, please.

[Dan Gould]

Well the Daily News got some new information out of Dan Duquette, or at least an explanation of why he thinks that information is coming out that will show that Clemens "used steroids in a significant way": Duquette has been involved in his own steroid investigation.

Since January 2008 - only weeks after Clemens was fingered in baseball's Mitchell Report as a steroid user - Duquette has been working with an independent management consulting group, "looking at the prevalence of performance-enhancing drugs within the game." The group is comprised of statisticians and forensic accountants, but Duquette will not say who the group consists of or how it's being funded. The forensic accountants suggest the group is looking into financial paper trails, much like the findings in the Mitchell Report, where receipts and check stubs from steroid transactions by players were printed along with Mitchell's findings.

Duquette says the research is not "ready for prime time," but he hopes to publish the material in book form or in a magazine article. What he has uncovered is "very compelling," he says, and potentially damning material on the Rocket and other current and former players.

The man who declared that Clemens was "in the twilight of his career" after the '96 season - before Clemens went on to win four more Cy Young Awards with three other teams - says the research project "started with Clemens, but it certainly didn't end with Clemens.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2010/07/25/2010-07-25_duquette_on_trail_of_rocket.html

Its an interesting statement but he also says that the DOJ hasn't been in touch with him, so I wonder whether they've covered the same ground separately or what? Did he put out this information with the express intent of getting the DOJ's attention? And I'm not sure how much forensic accountants can prove without voluntary cooperation from the users and suppliers, or a court order, which they clearly aren't getting.

But if Duquette is doing nothing but blowing smoke, and he was just running his mouth on that radio show, why do you up the ante and talk about this stuff? If you want it to go away you give a polite "no comment" and that's the end of it. Instead he's upped the ante by acting like he's involved in some independent investigation that has uncovered substantial evidence of PED use by Clemens and many other players. So why talk about it if there's nothing to it?

[Dave James]

Clemens to be indicted for perjury:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/sports/baseball/20clemens.html?_r=1&hp

[ghost of miles]

Roger needs to get himself a new gig.

[Chalupa]

Back from vacation....

This was just Tweeted by Clemens about 10 minutes ago....

I never took HGH or Steroids. And I did not lie to Congress. I look forward to challenging the Governments accusations, and hope people will keep an open mind until trial. I appreciate all the support I have been getting. I am happy to finally have my day in court.

Rocket

[Tim McG]

I patiently await all of the mounds of hearsay evidence the Feds have to prove their case. You know, just like with Barry Bonds.

So! Where is the public outcry to asterisk everything Clemens did? Are we taking back all those WS wins, too?

An indictment just before Bonds kangaroo trail proves nothing except the government has no case. This is just total nonsense and a waste of taxpayer money.

[Brad]

I hope that that Clemens saves the adjoining cell for Barroid.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Brad

[Jazzmoose]

But if Duquette is doing nothing but blowing smoke, and he was just running his mouth on that radio show, why do you up the ante and talk about this stuff? If you want it to go away you give a polite "no comment" and that's the end of it. Instead he's upped the ante by acting like he's involved in some independent investigation that has uncovered substantial evidence of PED use by Clemens and many other players. So why talk about it if there's nothing to it?

Well, I'm not saying this is the case with Duquette, but the term 'attention whore' can explain a lot of motivation in our modern times...

[Dan Gould]

I patiently await all of the mounds of hearsay evidence the Feds have to prove their case. You know, just like with Barry Bonds.

So! Where is the public outcry to asterisk everything Clemens did? Are we taking back all those WS wins, too?

An indictment just before Bonds kangaroo trail proves nothing except the government has no case. This is just total nonsense and a waste of taxpayer money.

You're a smart man to go with this, Timmy. Otherwise you might have to walkback your inane claim that the Bonds case is all about race and the Feds never go after a white ballplayer.

Meanwhile, back in the land of reality:

The Daily News - whose reporting has yet to be shown to be inaccurate in any way, from BALCO to Bonds to McGuire to Clemens - reports that one source describes the evidence amassed as "overwhelming". Unfortunately it will take but one stupid or biased juror to save Clemens but on the other hand the jury pool in D.C. isn't as likely to look contain that type of person than it is in Texas.

And its interesting to note the many charges that are related to Licodain and B-12 injections. Clemens brought those issues in himself, and the Committee interviewed training staff and team doctors in Toronto and NY and they all said to a certainty that what Clemens described never happened. It could be real interesting if Clemens is found not-guilty on the steroid charges because they muddy the DNA-waters (or get it excluded by chain-of-custody claims) but is found guilty on the rest.

Satisfying? I might be disappointed but as long as I see a perp walk, orange jump-suit and for him to be damned for all eternity, I'll be happy.

[Dan Gould]

... the term 'attention whore' can explain a lot of motivation in our modern times...

Speaking of which,

"The indictment of Roger Clemens comes as no surprise to me. In my opinion, the case against Clemens is far stronger than the case against Barry Bonds. Brian McNamee is an eye witness who will testify against Clemens and there appears to be strong physical evidence against him as well. The government simply does not have this type of evidence against Bonds. I believe Roger Clemens is in a lot of trouble." - Victor Conte

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/iteam/2010/08/balco-founder-conte-issues-sta.html#ixzz0x8z9iQUy

This guy sticks his head into every steroid story, the writers don't even have to bother to ask his opinion.

Another possibility: Now Pettitte is stuck with having to testify, in public, under oath in a criminal case. He didn't even want to testify before Congress. Does he stand up to Roger and try to talk some sense into him to accept a plea bargain?

Same question about Mrs. Clemens. She was there when McNamee injected her with HGH. She knows the truth. If she were forced to testify, will she stick with the lies or will the proverbial shit hit the marital fan?

[Tim McG]

I patiently await all of the mounds of hearsay evidence the Feds have to prove their case. You know, just like with Barry Bonds.

So! Where is the public outcry to asterisk everything Clemens did? Are we taking back all those WS wins, too?

An indictment just before Bonds kangaroo trail proves nothing except the government has no case. This is just total nonsense and a waste of taxpayer money.

You're a smart man to go with this, Timmy. Otherwise you might have to walkback your inane claim that the Bonds case is all about race and the Feds never go after a white ballplayer.

Meanwhile, back in the land of reality:

The Daily News - whose reporting has yet to be shown to be inaccurate in any way, from BALCO to Bonds to McGuire to Clemens - reports that one source describes the evidence amassed as "overwhelming". Unfortunately it will take but one stupid or biased juror to save Clemens but on the other hand the jury pool in D.C. isn't as likely to look contain that type of person than it is in Texas.

And its interesting to note the many charges that are related to Licodain and B-12 injections. Clemens brought those issues in himself, and the Committee interviewed training staff and team doctors in Toronto and NY and they all said to a certainty that what Clemens described never happened. It could be real interesting if Clemens is found not-guilty on the steroid charges because they muddy the DNA-waters (or get it excluded by chain-of-custody claims) but is found guilty on the rest.

Satisfying? I might be disappointed but as long as I see a perp walk, orange jump-suit and for him to be damned for all eternity, I'll be happy.

Yeah, yeah.

You still have to have proof, Danny. End of comment. Game. Set. Match. Nuff said.

Edited August 21, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

Keep dreaming Timmy.

The only difference between Bonds and Clemens is that Bonds either made a deal with him to keep his mouth shut, or the man is secretly in love with Barroid and just can't bring himself to put him in prison, while Clemens couldn't stand the fact that some peon had squealed and went after said peon with a vengeance.

The former is a much smarter play.

[Tim McG]

Keep dreaming Timmy.

The only difference between Bonds and Clemens is that Bonds either made a deal with him to keep his mouth shut, or the man is secretly in love with Barroid and just can't bring himself to put him in prison, while Clemens couldn't stand the fact that some peon had squealed and went after said peon with a vengeance.

The former is a much smarter play.

A deal...?

Danny, you are aware, of course, that the bench threw out the Fed's biggest piece of pretend evidence, aren't you? The Feds asked for a dely, not the defense.

A love tryst...and I'm dreaming? M'kay.

[Brad]

When you ask most people "what is two plus two," the answer will be four. With Goodspeak (a misnomer of a name, no offense) the answer might be five, six, seven, but never four

[Tim McG]

When you ask most people "what is two plus two," the answer will be four. With Goodspeak (a misnomer of a name, no offense) the answer might be five, six, seven, but never four

I take offense, Brad. Misnomer...how so? Explain, please.

GoodSpeak is the name of my small business and is what I do beyond my full-time job which defines who I am.

[papsrus]

I patiently await all of the mounds of hearsay evidence the Feds have to prove their case. You know, just like with Barry Bonds.

So! Where is the public outcry to asterisk everything Clemens did? Are we taking back all those WS wins, too?

An indictment just before Bonds kangaroo trail proves nothing except the government has no case. This is just total nonsense and a waste of taxpayer money.

You're starting to not make sense. "The indictment ... proves nothing except the government has no case." How do you get from point A to point B on that one?

And dismissing the validity of the trials before they've even begun seems like the classic denial behavior. You're setting up the escape hatch as if expecting that they will be found guilty. What if they're found not guilty? Will you view the legal process that vindicated them as invalid?

I'd think these two athletes would welcome their day in court as a chance to clear their names. In fact, Clemens has said just that. I'm sure Bonds has, too.

As for taking back Clemens' WS wins because he's now tarnished with the same PED brush as Bonds, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Giants forfeit any or all of their wins -- WS or otherwise -- in which Barry Bonds participated. It's a team sport. Asterisks next to individual accomplishments, that's another story.

Edited August 22, 2010 by papsrus

[Tim McG]

I patiently await all of the mounds of hearsay evidence the Feds have to prove their case. You know, just like with Barry Bonds.

So! Where is the public outcry to asterisk everything Clemens did? Are we taking back all those WS wins, too?

An indictment just before Bonds kangaroo trail proves nothing except the government has no case. This is just total nonsense and a waste of taxpayer money.

You're starting to not make sense. "The indictment ... proves nothing except the government has no case." How do you get from point A to point B on that one?

And dismissing the validity of the trials before they've even begun seems like the classic denial behavior. You're setting up the escape hatch as if expecting that they will be found guilty. What if they're found not guilty? Will you view the legal process that vindicated them as invalid?

I'd think these two athletes would welcome their day in court as a chance to clear their names. In fact, Clemens has said just that. I'm sure Bonds has, too.

As for taking back Clemens' WS wins because he's now tarnished with the same PED brush as Bonds, I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Giants forfeit any or all of their wins -- WS or otherwise -- in which Barry Bonds participated. It's a team sport. Asterisks next to individual accomplishments, that's another story.

The problem is, you are reacting to something I did not say. You deleted the core of my comment. Your "from point A to Point B" comment is just plain manipulation of a highly edited remark. The whole sentence, not just the edited parts, tell the reader exactly what I really meant. That kind of edit out stuff is total crap, Papsrus.

To wit [and I boldfaced the entire sentence for you]:

I patiently await all of the mounds of hearsay evidence the Feds have to prove their case. You know, just like with Barry Bonds.

So! Where is the public outcry to asterisk everything Clemens did? Are we taking back all those WS wins, too?

An indictment just before Bonds kangaroo trail proves nothing except the government has no case. This is just total nonsense and a waste of taxpayer money.

What I am so obviously saying is the Feds called for a delay in the Bonds trial then indicted Clemens. It is a classic badger game: Keep the "badger" busy [in this case, the public] while you go after what you really want. In this case, indict Clemons for using steroids in an effort to "prove" Bonds is quilty if they get a conviction on CleClemensmons.

Juries are people and as such they are affected by the outcome due to similar circumstances which might persuade them to vote for guilt in the Bonds case where the Feds have no evidence.

As to any games being taken back, that's not the point here. Bonds' HR breaking baseball was asterisked and the hue and cry was to asterisk anything he ever did. My point was if people are so pissed about Bonds' HR record, then why aren't they calling for the same kinds of humiliation for Clemens or McGuire or whomever?

Bottom line: Race. A Black man had the temerity to beat a White drunkard. Period.

Get it now, Danny?

Edited August 23, 2010 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

I'm not the one whose comment you responded to, but let me just say:

This was the biggest pile of crap you've written on the topic to date, which is an extraordinary accomplishment.

Seriously, if I understand what you wrote, typos and all, its fucktastic insanity. Do you really think that the results of a Clemens trial will effect the Bonds jury in any way? Do you think the jurors will say, "well they don't have any scientific evidence about Bonds, but I heard they have a lot of scientific evidence about Clemens, so I vote to convict! Who's with me?"

There aren't enough in the world to properly notate this bit of insanity.