Curtis Fuller Images

[bertrand]

There has always been some confusion about the dates and personnel for the Savoy album Images by Curtis Fuller.

Among other things, some discographers claim Lee Morgan is on all tracks, but last time I listened I was pretty sure the trumpet player on some of the tracks is not Lee. Also, there are rumors that Yusef Lateef is not on the tracks with Lee despite what most discographies show.

I will listen again later, but here is what I found so far.

According to Jazzdiscography.com, it's Wilbur Harden on two tracks:

Date: June 6, 1960

Location: Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ

Label: Savoy

Curtis Fuller (ldr), Yusef Lateef (ts), Wilbur Harden (t), Curtis Fuller (tb), McCoy Tyner (p), Jimmy Garrison (b), Clifford Jarvis (d)

a. Accident (Curtis Fuller)

b. A New Date - 05:02 (Curtis Fuller)

When I listen later, I can certainly confirm the presence of McCoy Tyner, who I could recognize even if blindfolded and tossed into a mine-shaft. I will also probably be able to confirm that the trumpeter is not Lee. Don't know enough about Harden to say if it's him or not.

As usual, jazzdisco.org muddies the waters by claiming Lee is on all tracks.

The Matsumura discography is more discerning:

SESSION 071 1960-06-07 Curtis Fuller Sextet

Lee Morgan (tp), Curtis Fuller (tb), Yusef Lateef (ts), McCoy Tyner (p), Milt Hinton (b), Bobby Donaldson (ds), NYC, June 7, 1960

[ 1] Daryl's Minor (Fuller) (1)

[ 2] Daryl's Minor (Fuller) - Alt.Take 2 (1) CD-only

[ 3] Accident (Fuller) (1)

[ 4] Accident (Fuller) - Alt.Take 3 (1) CD-only

[ 5] Be Back Ta-Reckla (Fuller) (1)

[ 6] Judy-Ful (Fuller) (1)

They contradict Mike Fitzgerald on 'Accident', but not for 'A New Date'. Again, I will be able to confirm if it's Tyner. Not sure if I can tell if it's not Lateef.

I will listen, of course, but I thought I'd ask first to see if anyone has researched this already. I have a copy of our friend Claude Schlouch's Morgan discography, but I can't seem to locate it right now.

I'll come back later to post my conclusions after listening.

Bertrand.

Edited April 3, 2008 by bertrand

[JohnS]

Intruiging, I'm gonna have to give this one an airing.

[mikeweil]

Wilbur Harden's presence on those two tracks was confirmed in Loren Schoenberg's and Orrin Keepnews' liner notes to the most recent two CD reissue of the Wilbur Harden sessions for Savoy with John Coltrane (who really was the sideman on these dates). Harden "fell ill" during the Fuller session, so it was abandoned. Only one of the tracks was ever issued (A New Date - the info on Mike Fitzgerald's site can be trusted). These comments also say that Lateef and Tyner returned to the studio with Fuller and Lee Morgan as Harden's replacement the very next day to finish the album. The two takes of "Accident" issued have Lee Morgan. Listen yourself whether or not Lateef is present ...

Edited April 4, 2008 by mikeweil

[bertrand]

OK, we're getting somewhere, but there are still many gaps.

I see now that the 'Accident' listed by Mike Fitzgerald is an unissued take, probably with Harden. However, there are two takes of 'New Date' on my CD (a 20-bit Japanese digi-pack).

They returned to the studio the next day, but with a different bassist and drummer. I can buy that.

But my ears tell me a different story. It's definitely Lee Morgan on 'Accident' (two takes), 'Darryl's Minor' (two takes) and 'Be Back Ta-Reckla' (what does this mean, BTW). But I'm pretty sure it is NOT Morgan on 'Judy-Ful'. Is it Harden?

The presence of Tyner is not as obvious as I thought, but no one seems to question this, so I'll buy it.

Lateef is a problem. I need to listen to 'New Date' again, but for the other tracks I think the tenor on 'Judy-Ful' is NOT the same person as on the three tracks with Morgan. Furthermore, the tenor on 'Judy-Ful' is much more 'aggressive' - his solo is almost a bit 'out' and definitely not as comfortable and polished and straight-ahead as the tenor/flute on the other tracks. I would agree it's Lateef on this track.

Furthermore, I have outside information that Lateef and Morgan never recorded together, so this further confirms my opinion that it is not Lateef on the tracks with Morgan.

So my (still tentative) conclusions are:

Lee Morgan is the trumpet player on 'Accident', 'Darryl's Minor' and 'Be Back Ta-Reckla'. The trumpet player on the other two pieces is not Morgan. We're pretty sure it's Harden on 'A New Date', so it must be him as well on 'Judy-Ful', which means Keepnews was slightly off.

Lateef is the tenor on 'Judy-Ful', so probably on 'New Date' as well. Someone else (who?) is on tenor/flute on the tracks with Morgan.

Anyone else listened to this recently?

Bertrand.

[jazzbo]

I haven't listened to this in a long time, and I'm not likely to again for a while but wanted to add my supposition that "Be Back Ta-Reckla" is a phonetic titling of someone saying "(I'll) Be back directly."

I remember it all sounding like Teefsky to me. Not that anal about Morgan or Harden.

Edited April 4, 2008 by jazzbo

[Shawn]

I'm scanning through this now, it's definitely Lateef on ALL tracks. I sampled a few trumpet solos and see no reason to disagree with the published discography. I'm not overly familiar with Harden but Lee is pretty hard to miss, listen to all those little slurred licks in Judyful for example.

[bertrand]

Well, that's the thing, I don't find the slurred licks on 'Judyful' to be all that Lee-like. They sound much less cleanly executed than on the three other tracks. If it was the last tune of the 6/7 session, then Lee's chops were much weaker by the end of the date, assuming 'Judyful' was the last track recorded.

This is the case with Mother Ship - by the time they got to the last tune of the session (the title track), Lee's chops were gone for the day. His playing is much stronger on the other tracks. But this was in 1969, when we know Lee had gone through some issues with his chops. The Fuller date is 1960, when Lee had yet to go through these problems.

As for Lateef, I don't know his work well enough to say. It sounds to me like the tenor player on 'Judyful' is much more aggressive than on the first three tracks, but that's just a gut feeling. I'm not sure about 'New Date'.

Bertrand.

[jazzbo]

I've just relistened to the very same Savoy 20 bit lp facimile that you have Bertrand. (Well, I skipped all the Fuller solos, doesn't do much for me lately).

I have not even the very smallest doubt that Lateef is on all tracks. Whoever claimed he and Lee did not record together at the very least missed this date.

I also believe that Lee is where the enclosed discography with the cd says he is. (Tracks 1-4, 6 and 7).

Love Judyful, my favorite track on all the Savoy Fuller dates. Love how Van Gelder goosed the microphone preamp for Lateef's solo and makes it pop out so aggressively. Sure sounds like Lee here to me, not like Harden.

Here's my opinion:

Lee and Yusef on: Accident (both takes), Darryl's Minor (both takes), Be Back Ta-Reckla, and Judyful. Harden and Lateef on both takes of New Date.

Edited April 6, 2008 by jazzbo

[bertrand]

I will listen again to see what differences there are in the trumpeters between 'Judyful' and 'New Date'.

It was Lateef himself who claimed he never recorded with Lee. IIRC, he was asked specifically about this session. Musicians are known to be wrong about their own discographies, of course, but apparently Yusef was adamant. On the other hand, no one suggested any other tenor player. I'm going to go with Lateef unless someone else can put forth another name. I certainly am not enough of a Lateef expert to call it one way or another. I was just going on Lateef's probably faulty recollections, and the fact that the tenor player on 'Judyful' is much more aggressive than on the other tracks (i.e. less 'polished').

If ever I get to talk to Fuller again, I will ask him. He has a pretty good memory, because he did recall some details about Golden Boy (not the recording date, alas), as well as the Monday Night At Birdland date.

Bertrand.

[jazzbo]

I think I've heard every commercial release by Lateef up to the nineties and some beyond that and I have to say both sessions have Lateef and that I don't hear any "polish" differences between them at all.

Edited April 6, 2008 by jazzbo

[JohnS]

I have the Denon/Savoy cd that reissues the original album. The back cover indicates that Harden is on Accident and New Date but as Lon Says it's certainly Lee on Accident and Harden on new Date.

[Peter Friedman]

Just listened to this CD. My copy does not have the alternate takes.

Lateef plays on every track.

Lee Morgan is on Accident, Darryl's Minor, Be Back Ta-Reckla

Wilbur Harden is on Judyful and New Date.

It sure does not sound like Morgan on Judyful. The trumpet playing on that track sounds very much style wise like the playing on New Date. The crisp articulation and half valve bits that Morgan plays on

Accident,Darryl's Minor, and Be Back Ta-Reckla are absent on Judyful.

Edited April 8, 2008 by Peter Friedman

[Swinging Swede]

That was my tentative conclusion too. But if Lee's chops tired at the end of the session, I guess the solo on Judiful is something he might have played. Otherwise I agree that the trumpeter on Judiful sounds more like the one on New Date than the one on the three other tracks, where it's obviously Morgan.

By the way, the original liner notes mention Morgan's death. Was this an album that was given a catalogue number (MG 12164) at the time, but like several Blue Note albums wasn't actually released until much later? The liner notes only mention Morgan as the trumpeter on the entire album, but if those notes were written in the 70s, I guess noone remembered any longer what really happened on the sessions.

[Peter A]

By the way, the original liner notes mention Morgan's death. Was this an album that was given a catalogue number (MG 12164) at the time, but like several Blue Note albums wasn't actually released until much later? The liner notes only mention Morgan as the trumpeter on the entire album, but if those notes were written in the 70s, I guess noone remembered any longer what really happened on the sessions.

I think you are right. Although I have the other original vinyl LP's of Fuller on Savoy, I have never seen this one.

On a Japanese site the release year 1976 was mentioned for this title.