The mother, the child, the school board and the psychic

[Tim McG]

[Jazzmoose]

The whole problem here is the TA stupidly went to a psychic, but the teacher was only told of the abuse allegation.

Um...where are you getting this? I've reread the article several times, and I can't see where you're getting this theory that the teacher didn't know about the psychic.

[Niko]

The whole problem here is the TA stupidly went to a psychic, but the teacher was only told of the abuse allegation.

Um...where are you getting this? I've reread the article several times, and I can't see where you're getting this theory that the teacher didn't know about the psychic.

it doesn't say explicitly but even i was pretty certain until now that the teacher, the school board etc didn't know initially what the suspicions were based on (and that their mistake was mainly that they didn't have the standing to stop the whole thing, apologize and admit they had hired a pretty crazy person as an assistant educator for people's children)

Edited June 23, 2008 by Niko

[Tim McG]

The whole problem here is the TA stupidly went to a psychic, but the teacher was only told of the abuse allegation.

Um...where are you getting this? I've reread the article several times, and I can't see where you're getting this theory that the teacher didn't know about the psychic.

"an almost unbelievable tale of red tape involving a strange claim from a teaching assistant"

"they'd received allegations that Victoria had been the victim of sexual abuse"

Edited June 23, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Van Basten II]

Here's another article , it seems that the school knew about it (the psychic) before warning the mother.

Psychic's vision sets off sex-abuse probe

Ontario school confronts mother of 11-year-old autistic girl with allegation

Adrian Humphreys, National Post

Published: Thursday, June 19, 2008

An Ontario mother of an autistic girl is considering legal action against her local school board after a psychic's prediction to a special educational assistant sparked a sexual abuse report to the Children's Aid Society.

"I'm in shock," said Colleen Leduc, 38, of Barrie, north of Toronto. "They reported me to Children's Aid because of a psychic. Can you imagine?"

The damaging allegations were resolved by child welfare authorities relatively quickly, but the case highlights the difficult and sometimes clumsy outcome of zero-tolerance policies and mandatory reporting regulations regarding child sexual abuse.

The ordeal for Ms. Leduc began on Friday, May 30.

When she picked up her 11-year-old daughter, Victoria, at Terry Fox Elementary School that afternoon, nothing seemed out of the ordinary, she said. Victoria was one of six children with autism enrolled in a special education class that is supervised by a teacher and four educational assistants (EAs).

Shortly after arriving home, Ms. Leduc received a phone call from Victoria's teacher.

"The teacher said you have to come back to school right away -- it's urgent. My heart was racing," said Ms. Leduc, who went back to the school and met with the teacher, vice-principal and principal.

"The teacher looked at me and said: 'We have to tell you something. We have to tell you that Victoria's EA went to see a psychic and the psychic asked her if she works with a little girl with the initial V. When the EA said yes, the psychic said, 'Well, you need to know that this girl is being sexually abused by a man between the ages of 23 and 26.'"

The school officials then gave Ms. Leduc a list of behaviours that Victoria was exhibiting.

"You must remember that Victoria has severe autism and is entering puberty so she is exhibiting behaviours that are very common with children of this age but, being autistic and not having been taught otherwise, she will exhibit these behaviours in public," Ms. Leduc said.

The list included putting her hands down her pants, spitting, seeking to sit on cold objects and gyrating against staff members.

"The principal looks at me and says, 'We've called CAS.' Then I got sick to my stomach.

"I challenged them and asked if the other children in the class with autism exhibited these behaviours. They said, 'Oh yes, all the time.' But they were not reported to the CAS because they didn't have the psychic's tip."

Ms. Leduc credits the Children's Aid Society of Simcoe County for its handling of the matter. She said on the following Monday she met with a CAS worker, who quickly decided to close the case.

"She said to me: 'This was an open file, but it is now a shut file. This is ridiculous. I can't believe they are basing this on a psychic, and I'm sorry this happened to you.'"

The CAS did not return phone calls yesterday. The Simcoe County District School Board confirmed the CAS has closed its file on the matter.

Lindy Zaretsky, the board's superintendent in charge of special education programs, said she could not discuss the circumstances of a specific case.

"School staff and administrators have a duty to report, under the Child and Family Services Act when there is suspected abuse and if they believe there is reasonable grounds. However, it is the CAS that weighs any package of evidence and they make the determination whether to proceed with an investigation," said Dr. Zaretsky.

"I can say that historical and current and future practice from the board's position is that psychic readings are not regarded as evidence," she said.

The case reflects some of the difficulties with prevailing policies on child abuse that adopt a zero-tolerance approach.

"We have this policy in place that when in doubt, call and report," said Peter Dudding, executive director of the Child Welfare League of Canada, an organization promoting the protection of vulnerable children.

There is still room, however, for common sense under zero tolerance, he said.

"The law talks about 'reasonable and probable grounds' to believe something -- those are really legal terms for showing common sense.

"I have to tell you that at first blush, hearing that the basis of the report is a psychic doesn't sound like it falls within the realm of reportable child abuse," he said.

Ms. Leduc said she is considering her legal options and remains disappointed that the school has not contacted her to apologize. She has not had Victoria return to school since that May 30 meeting.

She can only assume that the closing of the file by CAS ends the school's concerns, said Ms. Leduc.

"Unless they take out a Ouija board and decide to do something else. They might want to take out a Ouija board or hold a seance, I'm not sure."

ahumphreys@nationalpost.com

[Big Al]

Pity George Carlin died before he had a chance to comment on this.

[Tim McG]

This merely echos what I have been saying:

"....the case highlights the difficult and sometimes clumsy outcome of zero-tolerance policies and mandatory reporting regulations regarding child sexual abuse."

"School staff and administrators have a duty to report, under the Child and Family Services Act when there is suspected abuse and if they believe there is reasonable grounds. However, it is the CAS that weighs any package of evidence and they make the determination whether to proceed with an investigation," said Dr. Zaretsky.

What anyone else says about reportable allegations means very little....we teachers don't work for them. We work for the school district. Again, it is the system and the law which governs our response, not the various pundits who have weighed in on this issue in the last article.

Edited June 23, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Van Basten II]

But another authority also said.

"We have this policy in place that when in doubt, call and report," said Peter Dudding, executive director of the Child Welfare League of Canada, an organization promoting the protection of vulnerable children.

There is still room, however, for common sense under zero tolerance, he said.

"The law talks about 'reasonable and probable grounds' to believe something -- those are really legal terms for showing common sense.

"I have to tell you that at first blush, hearing that the basis of the report is a psychic doesn't sound like it falls within the realm of reportable child abuse," he said.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Van Basten II

[Aggie87]

"I challenged them and asked if the other children in the class with autism exhibited these behaviours. They said, 'Oh yes, all the time.' But they were not reported to the CAS because they didn't have the psychic's tip."

So the only reason she was reported WAS because of the psychic, not her behavior. Amazing! The words of a psychic who doesn't even know the name of his "target" is credible, in the school's eyes.

Ms. Leduc credits the Children's Aid Society of Simcoe County for its handling of the matter. She said on the following Monday she met with a CAS worker, who quickly decided to close the case.

"She said to me: 'This was an open file, but it is now a shut file. This is ridiculous. I can't believe they are basing this on a psychic, and I'm sorry this happened to you.'"

At least the Children's Aid Society has some common sense.

[Tim McG]

But another authority also said.

"We have this policy in place that when in doubt, call and report," said Peter Dudding, executive director of the Child Welfare League of Canada, an organization promoting the protection of vulnerable children.

There is still room, however, for common sense under zero tolerance, he said.

"The law talks about 'reasonable and probable grounds' to believe something -- those are really legal terms for showing common sense.

"I have to tell you that at first blush, hearing that the basis of the report is a psychic doesn't sound like it falls within the realm of reportable child abuse," he said.

Again, we don't work for and are not governed by Child Welfare organiztions. We are employees of a school district and their no tolerance policy is what we must adhere to.

We can do nothing else and if this Peter Dudding was honest about it, he'd tell you the same thing, I am certain.

Edited June 23, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Niko]

The whole problem here is the TA stupidly went to a psychic, but the teacher was only told of the abuse allegation.

Um...where are you getting this? I've reread the article several times, and I can't see where you're getting this theory that the teacher didn't know about the psychic.

it doesn't say explicitly but even i was pretty certain until now that the teacher, the school board etc didn't know initially what the suspicions were based on (and that their mistake was mainly that they didn't have the standing to stop the whole thing, apologize and admit they had hired a pretty crazy person as an assistant educator for people's children)

turned out to be wrong... sorry

Edited June 23, 2008 by Niko

[Tim McG]

Ms. Leduc credits the Children's Aid Society of Simcoe County for its handling of the matter. She said on the following Monday she met with a CAS worker, who quickly decided to close the case.

"She said to me: 'This was an open file, but it is now a shut file. This is ridiculous. I can't believe they are basing this on a psychic, and I'm sorry this happened to you.'"

At least the Children's Aid Society has some common sense.

Exactly.

Which is why they make those determinations, not us. They are the experts on such things.

The whole problem here is the TA stupidly went to a psychic, but the teacher was only told of the abuse allegation.

Um...where are you getting this? I've reread the article several times, and I can't see where you're getting this theory that the teacher didn't know about the psychic.

it doesn't say explicitly but even i was pretty certain until now that the teacher, the school board etc didn't know initially what the suspicions were based on (and that their mistake was mainly that they didn't have the standing to stop the whole thing, apologize and admit they had hired a pretty crazy person as an assistant educator for people's children)

turned out to be wrong... sorry

Not exactly.

Scroll back up to my post #104.

Edited June 24, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Niko]

The whole problem here is the TA stupidly went to a psychic, but the teacher was only told of the abuse allegation.

Um...where are you getting this? I've reread the article several times, and I can't see where you're getting this theory that the teacher didn't know about the psychic.

it doesn't say explicitly but even i was pretty certain until now that the teacher, the school board etc didn't know initially what the suspicions were based on (and that their mistake was mainly that they didn't have the standing to stop the whole thing, apologize and admit they had hired a pretty crazy person as an assistant educator for people's children)

turned out to be wrong... sorry

Not exactly.

Scroll back up to my post #104.

by now we know the teacher knew about the psychic when he first talked to the mother but we do not know whether he knew about the psychic when he first reported the incident, right?

[Niko]

Ms. Leduc credits the Children's Aid Society of Simcoe County for its handling of the matter. She said on the following Monday she met with a CAS worker, who quickly decided to close the case.

"She said to me: 'This was an open file, but it is now a shut file. This is ridiculous. I can't believe they are basing this on a psychic, and I'm sorry this happened to you.'"

At least the Children's Aid Society has some common sense.

Exactly.

Which is why they make those determinations, not us. They are the experts on such things.

from

"This is ridiculous. I can't believe they are basing this on a psychic, and I'm sorry this happened to you."

i would not conclude that the cas worker found that the decision had to be delegated to her because only she had the necessary expertise ...

[Tim McG]

The whole problem here is the TA stupidly went to a psychic, but the teacher was only told of the abuse allegation.

Um...where are you getting this? I've reread the article several times, and I can't see where you're getting this theory that the teacher didn't know about the psychic.

it doesn't say explicitly but even i was pretty certain until now that the teacher, the school board etc didn't know initially what the suspicions were based on (and that their mistake was mainly that they didn't have the standing to stop the whole thing, apologize and admit they had hired a pretty crazy person as an assistant educator for people's children)

turned out to be wrong... sorry

Not exactly.

Scroll back up to my post #104.

by now we know the teacher knew about the psychic when he first talked to the mother but we do not know whether he knew about the psychic when he first reported the incident, right?

That's my take on the issue.

[Tim McG]

Ms. Leduc credits the Children's Aid Society of Simcoe County for its handling of the matter. She said on the following Monday she met with a CAS worker, who quickly decided to close the case.

"She said to me: 'This was an open file, but it is now a shut file. This is ridiculous. I can't believe they are basing this on a psychic, and I'm sorry this happened to you.'"

At least the Children's Aid Society has some common sense.

Exactly.

Which is why they make those determinations, not us. They are the experts on such things.

from

"This is ridiculous. I can't believe they are basing this on a psychic, and I'm sorry this happened to you."

i would not conclude that the cas worker found that the decision had to be delegated to her because only she had the necessary expertise ...

In this case, no.

But in a larger sense it is a very good thing we have several checks and balances along the way, don't you think?

[Dan Gould]

Everything I've been saying is laid out in that article. Case closed.

Tim is wrong. Everyone else is right.

Say good night, Gracie.

[Dan Gould]

And if there's any doubt, just let me highlight these two passages:

"I challenged them and asked if the other children in the class with autism exhibited these behaviours. They said, 'Oh yes, all the time.' But they were not reported to the CAS because they didn't have the psychic's tip."

The Simcoe County District School Board confirmed the CAS has closed its file on the matter.

Lindy Zaretsky, the board's superintendent in charge of special education programs, said she could not discuss the circumstances of a specific case.

"School staff and administrators have a duty to report, under the Child and Family Services Act when there is suspected abuse and if they believe there is reasonable grounds. However, it is the CAS that weighs any package of evidence and they make the determination whether to proceed with an investigation," said Dr. Zaretsky.

"I can say that historical and current and future practice from the board's position is that psychic readings are not regarded as evidence," she said.

There you go, Tim - its not the Welfare people declaring that the word of a psychic doesn't constitute evidence. Its the Board of Ed saying it. The Teacher and the Administration should have never acted. Period. End of discussion.

[Alexander]

And if there's any doubt, just let me highlight these two passages:

"I challenged them and asked if the other children in the class with autism exhibited these behaviours. They said, 'Oh yes, all the time.' But they were not reported to the CAS because they didn't have the psychic's tip."

The Simcoe County District School Board confirmed the CAS has closed its file on the matter.

Lindy Zaretsky, the board's superintendent in charge of special education programs, said she could not discuss the circumstances of a specific case.

"School staff and administrators have a duty to report, under the Child and Family Services Act when there is suspected abuse and if they believe there is reasonable grounds. However, it is the CAS that weighs any package of evidence and they make the determination whether to proceed with an investigation," said Dr. Zaretsky.

"I can say that historical and current and future practice from the board's position is that psychic readings are not regarded as evidence," she said.

There you go, Tim - its not the Welfare people declaring that the word of a psychic doesn't constitute evidence. Its the Board of Ed saying it. The Teacher and the Administration should have never acted. Period. End of discussion.

But the teacher and the administration should not be punished for this. Whatever else may have happened, whatever shaky grounds there were for suspicion in the first place, they WERE only acting in the child's best interests. As Tim has said, if this had been a case of abuse where the teacher and the TA had turned a blind eye, people would be (rightly) calling for their heads. It was a Catch-22 situation. The teacher and the administration did what they believed was right and ultmately, there was no lasting harm done.

[Tim McG]

And if there's any doubt, just let me highlight these two passages:

"I challenged them and asked if the other children in the class with autism exhibited these behaviours. They said, 'Oh yes, all the time.' But they were not reported to the CAS because they didn't have the psychic's tip."

The Simcoe County District School Board confirmed the CAS has closed its file on the matter.

Lindy Zaretsky, the board's superintendent in charge of special education programs, said she could not discuss the circumstances of a specific case.

"School staff and administrators have a duty to report, under the Child and Family Services Act when there is suspected abuse and if they believe there is reasonable grounds. However, it is the CAS that weighs any package of evidence and they make the determination whether to proceed with an investigation," said Dr. Zaretsky.

"I can say that historical and current and future practice from the board's position is that psychic readings are not regarded as evidence," she said.

There you go, Tim - its not the Welfare people declaring that the word of a psychic doesn't constitute evidence. Its the Board of Ed saying it. The Teacher and the Administration should have never acted. Period. End of discussion.

OK.

Whatever, Dan.

I can train a monkey to edit out sections to prove your own twisted bent on things. But if you scroll back to posts #104 and #107, I have cited quotes from that same article which flatly refute your sorry attempt at having to be right all the time.

I don't work for the child welfare people or anybody's two-bit opinion on the matter...I work for the school district. I have to adhere to their rules, not the CPS after-the-fact-you-blew-it back peddle. Get it?

The day those hyper-vigilant CPS guys protect my ass from prosecution from some bombastic asshole hell bent for a lawsuit because of a non-report of child abuse is the same day I ignore suspected child abuse allegations.

You are absolutely out to lunch on this one and You are a complete idiot if you think we teachers are going to disobey our own bosses.

Grab a clue once, Dan....fer crissakes.

Amazing ignorance.

Edited June 24, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

And if there's any doubt, just let me highlight these two passages:

"I challenged them and asked if the other children in the class with autism exhibited these behaviours. They said, 'Oh yes, all the time.' But they were not reported to the CAS because they didn't have the psychic's tip."

The Simcoe County District School Board confirmed the CAS has closed its file on the matter.

Lindy Zaretsky, the board's superintendent in charge of special education programs, said she could not discuss the circumstances of a specific case.

"School staff and administrators have a duty to report, under the Child and Family Services Act when there is suspected abuse and if they believe there is reasonable grounds. However, it is the CAS that weighs any package of evidence and they make the determination whether to proceed with an investigation," said Dr. Zaretsky.

"I can say that historical and current and future practice from the board's position is that psychic readings are not regarded as evidence," she said.

There you go, Tim - its not the Welfare people declaring that the word of a psychic doesn't constitute evidence. Its the Board of Ed saying it. The Teacher and the Administration should have never acted. Period. End of discussion.

But the teacher and the administration should not be punished for this. Whatever else may have happened, whatever shaky grounds there were for suspicion in the first place, they WERE only acting in the child's best interests. As Tim has said, if this had been a case of abuse where the teacher and the TA had turned a blind eye, people would be (rightly) calling for their heads. It was a Catch-22 situation. The teacher and the administration did what they believed was right and ultmately, there was no lasting harm done.

Exactly, Alexander.

I couldn't have said it any better.

[Van Basten II]

I would have loved to see the headlines of having a teacher or anyone else for that matter getting sued because he did not listen to the ramblings of a psychic , wonder what would have been the reaction of a judge hearing the case

[Tim McG]

I would have loved to see the headlines of having a teacher or anyone else for that matter getting sued because he did not listen to the ramblings of a psychic , wonder what would have been the reaction of a judge hearing the case

Please.

The issue is reporting or not reporting child abuse irrespective of who has an opinion about the source the TA consulted.

Apples and oranges, VB.

Edited June 24, 2008 by GoodSpeak

[Jazzmoose]

This merely echos what I have been saying...

Well, other than contradicting your claim of the teacher and administrators not knowing this was based on a psychic's word, yes...

[Jazzmoose]

But the teacher and the administration should not be punished for this. Whatever else may have happened, whatever shaky grounds there were for suspicion in the first place, they WERE only acting in the child's best interests. As Tim has said, if this had been a case of abuse where the teacher and the TA had turned a blind eye, people would be (rightly) calling for their heads. It was a Catch-22 situation. The teacher and the administration did what they believed was right and ultmately, there was no lasting harm done.

Sorry, but "covering your ass" is not the same thing as "acting in the child's best interests".