What's Gone Wrong With Rock?

[WD45]

maybe it's unfair to equate impact on popular culture with making great music... (and absurd to say i am not going to listen to it unless it has made an impact on popular culture (which is comparable to that of) as dylan lennon and mccartney - nothing against horace parlan... but do you really think his impact on popular culture was, say 5% that of dylan (or even leonard cohen))

that said, does the impact of (Stones), Who, Led Zep really still last? dylan/lennon/mccartney, hendrix i can see... don't speak for my generation too often, but looking at history i see morrissey/marr at least as large as the who

Fair point, although I wasn't suggesting listening habits should be determined by a musician's importance in popular culture. It is only one measure of the relative significance of the music compared to the vaunted 90s bands like Pearl Jam etc. I would definitely argue that bands such as the Who, Led Zep, Stones etc had a much wider influence and impact - and a more lasting one - than the Smiths, for example, ever had ( outside Manchester ). How many bands formed as a result of these 60s and 70s bands compared to those 'inspired' by The Smiths? Arguably more indie bands formed as a result of listening to The Velvet Underground - a 60s band.

Source?

[Niko]

don't have one...

but does anyone have a really good example where one band is the most influential one in some genre but another one made the better albums... (coming a little later, or doing something that's more difficult to use as a blueprint...)

[Sundog]

don't have one...

but does anyone have a really good example where one band is the most influential one in some genre but another one made the better albums...

Sure...

Sex Pistols vs. The Clash (Just my opinion of course, but I'm probably not alone in this view)

[Shawn]

don't have one...

but does anyone have a really good example where one band is the most influential one in some genre but another one made the better albums... (coming a little later, or doing something that's more difficult to use as a blueprint...)

On the metal frontier...

Venom - helped form the speed metal genre when they debuted in 1981 (but they were a terrible band)...later "perfected" by Metallica & Slayer in 1983.

[sjarrell]

that said, does the impact of (Stones), Who, Led Zep really still last?

That's a big affirmative.

Thank you too, Shawn.

How's this for impact?: Which drummer is sampled on just about every rap and hip hop record put out here in the good old US of A?

I'm going to guess John Bonham.

I would think that Clyde Stubblefield has been sampled a HELL of a lot more than John Boham. How about Jerome “Bigfoot” Brailey or Ramon "Tiki" Fulwood? Tony Thompson? I would think that all of those guys have been sampled more often than John Bonham!

You are incorrect. Bonham has been credited by all the usual suspects in those other genres. Shall I start a new thread?

Yes, please.

:lol:

[Alexander]

that said, does the impact of (Stones), Who, Led Zep really still last?

That's a big affirmative.

Thank you too, Shawn.

How's this for impact?: Which drummer is sampled on just about every rap and hip hop record put out here in the good old US of A?

I'm going to guess John Bonham.

I would think that Clyde Stubblefield has been sampled a HELL of a lot more than John Boham. How about Jerome “Bigfoot” Brailey or Ramon "Tiki" Fulwood? Tony Thompson? I would think that all of those guys have been sampled more often than John Bonham!

You are incorrect. Bonham has been credited by all the usual suspects in those other genres. Shall I start a new thread?

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that Bonham has been credited in more album liner notes? Or that he has actually appeared on more hip-hop albums? Would you please name your source?

Here's the thing: For the first fifteen years of its existence, hip-hop was largely fueled by James Brown and Parliament/Funkadelic samples. Clyde Stubblefield played drums on most of Brown's most influential (and therefore most sampled) works. I would think, therefore, that Stubblefield appears on literally hundreds, if not thousands, of hip-hop songs. Brailey and Fulwood played drums for Parliament/Funkadelic. Dr. Dre alone must be responsable for a large number of Parliament samples (which formed the foundation of Dre's G-Funk. Get it? P-Funk, G-Funk?). Tony Thompson played drums for Chic (among many, many other disco and funk bands in the seventies). Chic was a frequent candidate for early hip-hop sampling (see "The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash and the Wheels of Steel" for an example) as were other disco and funk groups. You're telling me that out of all the JB, George Clinton, and other assorted funk and disco albums sampled through out hip-hop's thirty year history, John Bonham has been the SINGLE MOST SAMPLED DRUMMER? It doesn't make sense. I need to see a source here.

[Alexander]

Incidentally, the most sampled drum break EVER is the "Amen Break," which was recorded by the Winstons and performed by drummer G.C. Coleman. I would think that this would make Coleman "the most sampled drummer ever."

[mjzee]

I don't have time to read all 9 pages of this thread that seems to have sprung up like a mushroom, so forgive me if I repeat what others may have posted.

1) Lyrics are overrated. I prefer listening to jazz because it's instrumental, and I can think while I listen, while lyrics jam up my head. Also, most lyricists these days are callow youths (from my perspective), who have nothing really new to tell me. Finally, my politics have changed, I've gotten more conservative, and most ranting political songs turn me off. Example: I was considering downloading Norah Jones's last album (Amazon had it for like $2.99), but the feedback indicated that many songs were political. Who needs that? I didn't buy it.

2) We don't have time to study albums any more; we're working. I love Capt. Beefheart, but I don't know if I'd love him if I first heard him today - I don't have the time to devote to listen to him, and put together what he was presenting.

3) At the end of a hard day, I don't want to listen to some jangly-ass piece of shit.

4) It's still very pleasant to relisten to music from my youth - I still get something out of it. I enjoy listening to the Grateful Dead - that's my music. So sue me.

[Shawn]

I'm one of those weird ducks that can listen to some Coltrane, then some Albert Ayler...and then follow it up with Black Sabbath...then maybe King's X...and then end the night by playing Debussy.

Fuck it, that's me.

Right now I'm listening to David Crosby and it sounds like the most magical thing on this earth. But I might put on Motorhead's Another Perfect Day next.....

[Alexander]

I'm one of those weird ducks that can listen to some Coltrane, then some Albert Ayler...and then follow it up with Black Sabbath...then maybe King's X...and then end the night by playing Debussy.

Fuck it, that's me.

Right now I'm listening to David Crosby and it sounds like the most magical thing on this earth. But I might put on Motorhead's Another Perfect Day next.....

Right on! I'm the same way. Listening to Warren Zevon right now...

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm one of those weird ducks that can listen to some Coltrane, then some Albert Ayler...and then follow it up with Black Sabbath...then maybe King's X...and then end the night by playing Debussy.

Fuck it, that's me.

Right now I'm listening to David Crosby and it sounds like the most magical thing on this earth. But I might put on Motorhead's Another Perfect Day next.....

I wouldn't make the same choices but I'm with you in spirit.

Those of us who obsess on music worry far too much that what we like must also be 'important' or 'significant'.

Edited June 26, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[Jim Alfredson]

At the end of a hard day, I don't want to listen to some jangly-ass piece of shit.

[kinuta]

I'm one of those weird ducks that can listen to some Coltrane, then some Albert Ayler...and then follow it up with Black Sabbath...then maybe King's X...and then end the night by playing Debussy.

Fuck it, that's me.

Right now I'm listening to David Crosby and it sounds like the most magical thing on this earth. But I might put on Motorhead's Another Perfect Day next.....

I wouldn't make the same choices but I'm with you in spirit.

Those of us who obsess on music worry far too much that what we like must also be 'important' or 'significant'.

I don't often comment on music threads but I do agree on this. I can play Lucky Thompson, Bud Powell, Martha & The Vandellas, Joni Mitchell and Radiohead back to back without giving a second thought.

[Jazzjet]

maybe it's unfair to equate impact on popular culture with making great music... (and absurd to say i am not going to listen to it unless it has made an impact on popular culture (which is comparable to that of) as dylan lennon and mccartney - nothing against horace parlan... but do you really think his impact on popular culture was, say 5% that of dylan (or even leonard cohen))

that said, does the impact of (Stones), Who, Led Zep really still last? dylan/lennon/mccartney, hendrix i can see... don't speak for my generation too often, but looking at history i see morrissey/marr at least as large as the who

Fair point, although I wasn't suggesting listening habits should be determined by a musician's importance in popular culture. It is only one measure of the relative significance of the music compared to the vaunted 90s bands like Pearl Jam etc. I would definitely argue that bands such as the Who, Led Zep, Stones etc had a much wider influence and impact - and a more lasting one - than the Smiths, for example, ever had ( outside Manchester ). How many bands formed as a result of these 60s and 70s bands compared to those 'inspired' by The Smiths? Arguably more indie bands formed as a result of listening to The Velvet Underground - a 60s band.

Source?

A famous remark, often attributed to British musician Brian Eno, is that while only a few thousand people bought the first Velvet Underground record upon its release, almost every single one of them was inspired to start a band.

[Jazzjet]

Incidentally, the most sampled drum break EVER is the "Amen Break," which was recorded by the Winstons and performed by drummer G.C. Coleman. I would think that this would make Coleman "the most sampled drummer ever."

I agree with you about the use of James Brown, Parliament drum samples being far more common than John Bonham. However, surely the Funky Drummer break was the most commonly sampled. Certainly in the early days of hip hop you could hardly move without hearing it. Wasn't the Amen Break more often used in Drum & Bass?

[.:.impossible]

When I was in high school, it seemed like everyone who owned the Operation Ivy album immediately started a band. They ended up sounding more like early Green Day, but it was a pretty "influential" album by Eno's standard. Great album in my book regardless of how important it is to you.

p.s. I didn't start a band.

[Alexander]

maybe it's unfair to equate impact on popular culture with making great music... (and absurd to say i am not going to listen to it unless it has made an impact on popular culture (which is comparable to that of) as dylan lennon and mccartney - nothing against horace parlan... but do you really think his impact on popular culture was, say 5% that of dylan (or even leonard cohen))

that said, does the impact of (Stones), Who, Led Zep really still last? dylan/lennon/mccartney, hendrix i can see... don't speak for my generation too often, but looking at history i see morrissey/marr at least as large as the who

Fair point, although I wasn't suggesting listening habits should be determined by a musician's importance in popular culture. It is only one measure of the relative significance of the music compared to the vaunted 90s bands like Pearl Jam etc. I would definitely argue that bands such as the Who, Led Zep, Stones etc had a much wider influence and impact - and a more lasting one - than the Smiths, for example, ever had ( outside Manchester ). How many bands formed as a result of these 60s and 70s bands compared to those 'inspired' by The Smiths? Arguably more indie bands formed as a result of listening to The Velvet Underground - a 60s band.

Source?

A famous remark, often attributed to British musician Brian Eno, is that while only a few thousand people bought the first Velvet Underground record upon its release, almost every single one of them was inspired to start a band.

Ehhhh. That's a cliche and an apocraphal story to boot. As much as I like and admire the Velvets (I have all their albums), I really don't think they had quite the impact attributed to them...

[Alexander]

Incidentally, the most sampled drum break EVER is the "Amen Break," which was recorded by the Winstons and performed by drummer G.C. Coleman. I would think that this would make Coleman "the most sampled drummer ever."

I agree with you about the use of James Brown, Parliament drum samples being far more common than John Bonham. However, surely the Funky Drummer break was the most commonly sampled. Certainly in the early days of hip hop you could hardly move without hearing it. Wasn't the Amen Break more often used in Drum & Bass?

You may be right. The Amen Break has been used in all kinds of music, however. I know I've heard it dozens of times myself, usually in an early hip-hop context (Grandmaster Flash used it as did the Beastie Boys, just to name two artists off the top of my head). But the "Funky Drummer" was also heavily sampled, which is why I brought up Clyde Stubblefield in the first place...

[sjarrell]

You know, I think the era of the rock superstar is past. MSN regularly throws Britney, Paris, American Idol-ers at me- the media pumps celebrity at the receptive masses and kids don't just get to be stars on the back of actual talent. They used to could, I think.

It's not that talent and vision are gone. The star-makers are just busy elsewhere, pushing trainwrecks and mediocrity. Rock needs a new press agent.

[JETman]

You know, I think the era of the rock superstar is past. MSN regularly throws Britney, Paris, American Idol-ers at me- the media pumps celebrity at the receptive masses and kids don't just get to be stars on the back of actual talent. They used to could, I think.

It's not that talent and vision are gone. The star-makers are just busy elsewhere, pushing trainwrecks and mediocrity. Rock needs a new press agent.

You may be right, but the question remains: where are the stars? Stars of the past didn't need no stinkin' press agents. This is a function of today's corporate environment.

Tell me truthfully, though -- do you hear any guitar solos today that make your hair stand on end? Like, for example, Clapton's duo of solos in Cream's live version of "Crossroads", which still gets me everytime. No need to flame, that's just one that does it for me. I do not hear the same kind of virtuousity in the rock and roll of the last 20 or so years.

[7/4]

A famous remark, often attributed to British musician Brian Eno, is that while only a few thousand people bought the first Velvet Underground record upon its release, almost every single one of them was inspired to start a band.

Ehhhh. That's a cliche and an apocraphal story to boot. As much as I like and admire the Velvets (I have all their albums), I really don't think they had quite the impact attributed to them...

Sure they did. You're probably too young to remember.

All those lame ass new wave "punk" rock bands that never rose about cult status, for example....

[Niko]

When I was in high school, it seemed like everyone who owned the Operation Ivy album immediately started a band. They ended up sounding more like early Green Day, but it was a pretty "influential" album by Eno's standard. Great album in my book regardless of how important it is to you.

p.s. I didn't start a band.

iirc rage against the machine was what got the bands started in my high school; the one band from those high school days which is still around was started by someone whose then favorite artist was George Benson...

http://www.myspace.com/therainrock

played for a few years in a band before realizing that the others had all been listening to the first Louise Attaque album over and over again... (not a bad album at all... when i first heard it, it felt like i knew it better than most musics)

[sjarrell]

You know, I think the era of the rock superstar is past. MSN regularly throws Britney, Paris, American Idol-ers at me- the media pumps celebrity at the receptive masses and kids don't just get to be stars on the back of actual talent. They used to could, I think.

It's not that talent and vision are gone. The star-makers are just busy elsewhere, pushing trainwrecks and mediocrity. Rock needs a new press agent.

You may be right, but the question remains: where are the stars? Stars of the past didn't need no stinkin' press agents. This is a function of today's corporate environment.

Tell me truthfully, though -- do you hear any guitar solos today that make your hair stand on end? Like, for example, Clapton's duo of solos in Cream's live version of "Crossroads", which still gets me everytime. No need to flame, that's just one that does it for me. I do not hear the same kind of virtuousity in the rock and roll of the last 20 or so years.

Please stop with the Clapton. Please. What went wrong with virtuoso rock? Punk stuck a big-ass fork in it.

Edited for extra snark.

Edited June 26, 2008 by sjarrell

[Big Beat Steve]

I do not hear the same kind of virtuousity in the rock and roll of the last 20 or so years.

Please stop with the Clapton. Please.

Clapton ain't bad.

BUT - The "Rock" stopped rolling in 1960 or so (after Eddie Cochran's death and after the first bunch of artificially fabricated "beach party teen idols" drowned out the ROCKERS and before the British BEAT came along. :D

What you Americans (and everybody else) have had ever since is just plan ROCK but NOT rock'n'ROLL (with the exception of the neo-rock'n'roll/rockabilly subculture(s) within rock that came along every now and then and will continue to flourish).

[JETman]

You know, I think the era of the rock superstar is past. MSN regularly throws Britney, Paris, American Idol-ers at me- the media pumps celebrity at the receptive masses and kids don't just get to be stars on the back of actual talent. They used to could, I think.

It's not that talent and vision are gone. The star-makers are just busy elsewhere, pushing trainwrecks and mediocrity. Rock needs a new press agent.

You may be right, but the question remains: where are the stars? Stars of the past didn't need no stinkin' press agents. This is a function of today's corporate environment.

Tell me truthfully, though -- do you hear any guitar solos today that make your hair stand on end? Like, for example, Clapton's duo of solos in Cream's live version of "Crossroads", which still gets me everytime. No need to flame, that's just one that does it for me. I do not hear the same kind of virtuousity in the rock and roll of the last 20 or so years.

Please stop with the Clapton. Please. What went wrong with virtuoso rock? Punk stuck a big-ass fork in it.

Edited for extra snark.

Why so snarky, sj? Why not just stick to answering the question. Punk was not a reaction to virtuoso rock, it was a reflection of the changing times. It was what it was, and everybody knew it sucked (and had little staying power in order to stick a big-ass fork in rock, as you say), but they listened to it anyway just to be "hip". Did you actually think that bands like the Clash could "play" their instruments?

Again, please point me in the direction of music with staying power. I beg you. I'm open-minded, and young. I promise I'd be willing to listen.