TedR Posted February 16, 2009 Report Posted February 16, 2009 Within Jim and Allen's discussion it's interesting to me that jazz writing/critics could be replaced with jazz music/musicians and the discussion could be practically the same. Quote
JSngry Posted February 16, 2009 Report Posted February 16, 2009 Very true, and don't think I haven't thought of that as well, or that I've not confronted the same issues within myself. We all have, I think, a tendency to "lock into" a certain time frame and it's ways as "our way of life" and then proceed to look at everything else, past, present, and future through that lens. Totally human, but the thing for "public" expressionists such as writers is that after a diligent reader reads enough of a certain writer to figure out what that lens is, it then become easier, I think, to get a feel for when the words are actual living, breathing, semi-freshly created insights or "just" fresh pages out of the same general scrapbook. You know, with some guys, they could write about Pee Wee Russell or about Clifford Brown or about Guy Lombardo or about Stokowsky and only the details would be different, if you know what I mean. None of which is evil or anything. It's perfectly human. But it does explain why I no longer feel compelled to read, or feel compelled by, the work of Francis Davis. Even though the facts and "insights" might still be there, the...vigor is not. And he is not the only one. Me, I don't begrudge any human being comfort or relaxation. But when it come to those human beings whose work I enjoy reading (or music I enjoy hearing), I'm kinda partial to the vigor. If you can get the one and keep the other, more power to you. You win at life! Quote
AllenLowe Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Posted February 16, 2009 well, yes, many musicians record too much - and Cliff, thanks for the flowers - I just sent a thank-you-pm - the wife sends the best to your wife - look forward to our annual summer outing - Quote
AllenLowe Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Posted February 16, 2009 (edited) will also make sure our cabins adjoin on the cruise in April - Edited February 16, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Why does Cliff insist on his demonstrations of asshole status? Can't we all declare him the winner and move on? Quote
Cliff Englewood Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 (edited) and Cliff, thanks for the flowers - I just sent a thank-you-pm - the wife sends the best to your wife - look forward to our annual summer outing - You have a wife??? Seriously??? I can only presume that the poor woman is both deaf and blind, my condolences, to her, not you. Never got the PMs though. Edited February 17, 2009 by Cliff Englewood Quote
Cliff Englewood Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Why does Cliff insist on his demonstrations of asshole status? Can't we all declare him the winner and move on? What exactly are "demonstrations of asshole status?", bearing in mind I wouldn't have as much experience in these type of things as you would. Is there a different set of rules for people over 50 on this board? Or can some people just give it but not take it? Quote
7/4 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 naah...don't stop there. drag it out for a couple of months! . Quote
7/4 Posted February 17, 2009 Report Posted February 17, 2009 Anyway...I hear that Justin Timberlake was named most stylish man in America. I mean...like wow. How about that! Quote
Chauncey Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 (edited) Come on Allen, and please abide by your own laudable standards of comparative listening/reading and perception in general: what other liner notes in this category did you read? Now say it in public, with detail-- that Francis' (a TOTAL has-been; as JSngry suggests more politely than I, although I'll add Francis was never even that good, just better than nothing, particularly in the square-but-remunerative venues he was in) five times refried "KoB" blather is better than... ... Art Rosenbaum's book notes to the "Art of Field Recording"? Art Rosenbaum, artist, musician, folklorist Really, I'd love to see the comparison, point by point, both with regard to the music being written about and their respective historic-cultural contexts. Or... did Francis win on the name recognition of the project? Q1: Francis has distinguished himself as a writer on anything but jazz music since when? The 18th of never? Q2: Francis jazz writing peaked when... 1988? At the latest, 1991? That's fine, I wouldn't judge him any more harshly than the kid at the oil change place who had a bad day and forgot to vacuum but spare us the jive accolades. Siegfried & Roy could have written goddamn "KoB" notes and the "Academy" would have given them a prize too. Whoop-de-goddamn-do. Edited February 18, 2009 by ChaunceyMorehouse Quote
AllenLowe Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Posted February 18, 2009 well, if we want to get specific, Francis has written lots of good stuff in the last twenty years - I am happy to cite chapter and verse - will pull down his books in the next few days and give you guys a nice reading list - Quote
Dan Gould Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 Much as I hate to admit it, CM is probably right that name recognition of the most famous recording in jazz had more to do with the result of the voting than actually reading and comparing Davis' writing to whoever else was nominated. Quote
AllenLowe Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Posted February 18, 2009 no way to prove that, I think, and the quality of the notes is clear - there's really no evidence except supposition - anyone here talk to anyone who voted? Quote
Dan Gould Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 But isn't the history of the Grammy's (particularly in categories like jazz and blues) filled with the best known winning? Surely Francis' notes met a certain standard - I'd expect no less - but sight unseen, had I looked at the nominees before the award was given out, I'd have listed Davis as the favorite based on how famous the original recording is. Quote
Christiern Posted February 18, 2009 Report Posted February 18, 2009 I agree with Dan on this one. I know that I would not have won a Grammy in 1971 (I think that was the year) if my notes had not been on a Columbia album and the artist had not been Bessie Smith. My notes were definitely inferior to some of the competing ones. In one of the subsequent years, I think my nominated notes were better than John Simon's (he won), but his were for a Bing Crosby album, and Bing had just died. That's just how it goes. Now, having said that, it is quite possible—even likely—that Francis' notes deserved to beat the competition. He is a good, responsible writer who does his research and knows his subject. The character who now hides behind the "Chauncey Morehouse" forum ID(Chauncey deserved better) repeatedly comes off as someone who is eaten up by the success of others. He is quick to criticize and put others down, but offers no reason for anyone to take him seriously. What has he ever accomplished, other than to make a fool of himself here? Quote
AllenLowe Posted February 18, 2009 Author Report Posted February 18, 2009 yes, Francis consistently meets an incredibly high standard - and as I said, given a little time I will pull some of his collections and list what I think are some very important essays he has written over the last 20 years or so - and Chris, yes, it is true that high-visibility projects have some advantage - but I've been re-reading your Bessie bio in the last month and you have nothing to apologize for; I'm sure the notes were of equal quality - Quote
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