Johnny Cash quote

[Jim R]

I wasn't trying to be glib, only pointing out that sometimes the simple is not so easy to replicate -

As I say, I don't disagree at all. I guess it's the "simple" factor that kind of underlies my feeling about him getting so much praise heaped upon him. He deserves some of that, but I guess I just see it as a bit overblown at times.

and I know it seems an odd "set of dots" but it is pretty exact - Blind Blake was the prime ragtime/picker influence in the 1920s and early 1930s; Ike Everly, the Everly Brothers father, was known to have developed a picking style out of Blake (and there are later Newport recordings of Ike that show the debt to Blake); Merle Travis developed his Travis picking based in large part on the admitted influnence of Ike, whom he knew; Travis revolutionized country guitar with this complex thumb and line style; Scotty's playing was really a simpliifcation of this Travis picking, more single line, but alternating with chording - Carl Perkins picked up same - and basically, that is the early sound of Country/Hillbilly rock and roll guitar. Some went in other directions, but the Sun Records crew really caught everybody's attention, from Mike Bloomfield to Keith Richards -

When you said "the original strain of rock and roll guitar lineage is...", you seemed to be separating out the white/country lineage (and I know that dot number one- Blind Blake, wasn't white) from the black/blues lineage, to the effect that "rock" guitar was a white phenomenon, and the Chuck Berrys, Ike Turners, Bo Diddleys, etc, belong in a different category. Now that you specify "the early sound of Country/Hillbilly rock and roll guitar", it's a little more clear where you were coming from. I think it was a bit careless to say that "the original strain of rock and roll guitar lineage is..." and proceed to lay out the lineage of just the Country/Hillbilly strain.

It seems to me that Scotty Moore was far less an innovator than some of these others, far less talented imo, and the fact that he happened to be the right hand man for Elvis Presley has more to do with his renown than his actual guitar talent. Not that he didn't have some talent.

[ghost of miles]

I don't - I will add that the strangest thing I ever heard was on an old Howlin' Wolf Memhis session - on one cut (would have to go find it) there is a classic bebop piano intro; than into a Wolf blues. The pianist is listed as unidentified, but it has to be Phineas Newborne -

We could get a whole thread going on this subtopic, if there hasn't been one already at some point on the O--that Nashville Jumps box also has a Wynonie Harris side from the late 1940s on which Sun Ra plays piano. You can hear it about 7 minutes into this Night Lights show:

Second Magic City: Sun Ra in Chicago

[AllenLowe]

thanks, will check it out -

and Jim R -

actually, I consider rock and roll to be basically white music - if my history of rock and roll (1950-1970) ever comes out, it will describe rock and roll as a white way of thinking about black music. Which is not to say that there are not black rockers, only that I think the origin and most complex development of the music is very specifically white (hope this does not start a stampede here). Diddley is particularly important, and he is one of the few early black players in the idiom who is really stretching the boundary of the blues - Berry also, though he clearly took inspiration from hillbilly music, his whole sound and approach are very middle of the road. Diddley is in the line, I think, of the New Orleans guys, out of Dave Bartholomew, who are taking rhythm and blues and putting a Latin tinge on it. And this clave like beat (as in the Bo Diddey beat and the N.O. latin thing) is really what changes r&B to rock and roll (leads, also, to a hard four beat as opposed to back-beat drive). I disagree that the r&b and blues guys are rock and rollers - they use the terminology, but Elvis makes the music into something completely different (with the help of Crudup) and allows a whole generation (or two) of white guys to take their own liberties -

now there's also Hendrix; definitely out of very specific African American traditions - but interestingly enough he faces absolute rejection from that audience, and only gets liberated when he goes to England and faces crowds of white kids (and British rockers)

that's just the way I see it.

Edited April 6, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Alexander]

I don't doubt that Moore (however much one might enjoy his sound on those Elvis Sun records) would have remained in obscurity if he hadn't had the great good fortune to be with Elvis when Elvis broke through (Bill Black is another matter). If we're going to talk about Elvis's guitar players, however, let's talk about James Burton! THAT guy lives up to his hype, no question.

[AllenLowe]

yes, Burton is great. But there is something perfect about Scotty's playing. He had just the right sound in the right place at the right time.

[Alexander]

thanks, will check it out -

and Jim R -

actually, I consider rock and roll to be basically white music - if my history of rock and roll (1950-1970) ever comes out, it will describe rock and roll as a white way of thinking about black music. Which is not to say that there are not black rockers, only that I think the origin and most complex development of the music is very specifically white (hope this does not start a stampede here). Diddley is particularly important, and he is one of the few early black players in the idiom who is really stretching the boundary of the blues - Berry also, though he clearly took inspiration from hillbilly music, his whole sound and approach are very middle of the road. Diddley is in the line, I think, of the New Orleans guys, out of Dave Bartholomew, who are taking rhythm and blues and putting a Latin tinge on it. And this clave like beat (as in the Bo Diddey beat and the N.O. latin thing) is really what changes r&B to rock and roll (leads, also, to a hard four beat as opposed to back-beat drive). I disagree that the r&b and blues guys are rock and rollers - they use the terminology, but Elvis makes the music into something completely different (with the help of Crudup) and allows a whole generation (or two) of white guys to take their own liberties -

now there's also Hendrix; definitely out of very specific African American traditions - but interestingly enough he faces absolute rejection from that audience, and only gets liberated when he goes to England and faces crowds of white kids (and British rockers)

that's just the way I see it.

Jimi's another one of those artists who benefitted from a completely serendipidous turn of events. He was "discovered" by former Animals bassist Chas Chandler who took Jimi back to Blighty and kick-started Jimi's career. Imagine what might have happened if Chandler hadn't gone to the Cafe Wha? that night? As Allen rightly pointed out, Jimi had been roundly rejected by the R&B/Blues audience (not to mention the various artists who had fired Jimi for being too weird). What would have become of Jimi? Would he have kicked around NYC for a few more years before heading back to Seattle? Would he have found his audience?

For that matter, what would have happened to Richie Valens if the coin toss had gone the other way?

[Alexander]

yes, Burton is great. But there is something perfect about Scotty's playing. He had just the right sound in the right place at the right time.

Oh, no question. Moore and Black support Elvis perfectly on those recordings. Hail to Sam Phillips for hooking those guys up in the first place!

[Jim R]

Thanks Allen. Although we may see things a bit differently re Moore the musician, I bow to your wider knowledge of music history, and I understand your perspective. The more I try to examine and discuss things like this while using labels like "rock" and "r&b", the more I'm reluctant to generalize. I just wanted to make sure you weren't overlooking the influence of black guitarists who weren't straight-ahead blues players.

I don't doubt that Moore (however much one might enjoy his sound on those Elvis Sun records) would have remained in obscurity if he hadn't had the great good fortune to be with Elvis when Elvis broke through.

In a nutshell.

[Jim R]

And by the way, from that era, from that general melting pot, give me some Bill Jennings and Billy Butler, please.

[AllenLowe]

this is definitely a political mine field - as a matter of fact after I submitted my rock and roll manuscript to one University Press, the editor said "I like it but it won't pass political muster with my board." Not enough of the party line that rock and roll is just a white rip off - same thing happened with ANOTHER university press when I told the editor my idea of the irony of a black musician (Hendrix) who is liberated by whites musicians and audience - the exact reverse of the usual paradigm. He was so offended he basically hung up on me.

it also got a rather nasty review from U of Illinois, by Burton Peretti, I later found out - I told my wife this was like losing a human rights award to Hitler -

and to add to your guitarists, above, I would say also Wayne Bennett and Mickey Baker - also Pete Lewis -

Edited April 6, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Jim R]

and to add to your guitarists, above, I would say also Wayne Bennett and Mickey Baker - also Pete Lewis -

I remember being exposed to Bennett at some point long, long ago; and I'm pretty familiar with Baker, but I'll have to Google™ on Lewis. Thanks, btw, I think it's always a good thing to mention people who were relatively obscure and/or underappreciated.

Just in case you're interested, I stumbled on to this webpage earlier, and found it pretty interesting (some obscure sidemen get some props). Maybe there'll be a discovery or two there for others: One man's favorites...

[AllenLowe]

Pete Lewis was a regular with Johnny Otis's band, he was also the guitar player on the original Big Mama Thornton version of Hound Dog; he also recorded for King under his own name. Excellent player.

[Jazzmoose]

For those interested, Lester Bangs wrote a fairly good eulogy to Elvis that appears in his book PSYCHOTIC REACTIONS.

I was told I couldn't read Lester Bangs anymore after my acne cleared up...

[Jim R]

Pete Lewis was a regular with Johnny Otis's band, he was also the guitar player on the original Big Mama Thornton version of Hound Dog; he also recorded for King under his own name. Excellent player.

Thanks Allen. I'll see if I can track down some of those. Btw, check your PM's.

[AllenLowe]

hey, Moose, don't give up on Bangs, who is the ONLY rock critic I've ever read who really understands jazz - he wrote good stuff on Miles and Mingus, among others -

[Jazzmoose]

I didn't realize that; I just remember Bangs from Creem, although that was the seventies so "remember" might be a slight exaggeration.

[AllenLowe]

for all his craziness, Bangs was really a very grounded critic - smart and quite rational - and, accustomed as I am to how badly rock critics usually are when dealing with jazz, I was really quite pleasantly surprised with his very intuitive understanding of the music -

[fasstrack]

(Bill Black is another matter).

Is this the Bill Black that sang with Krupa and made one album of heartbreaking ballads? What a singer. Jonathan Schwartz is always playing that CD on his show, mostly Spring is Here. Great guitar, and I'd love to know who it is.

Hope I got the right guy........

[Alexander]

(Bill Black is another matter).

Is this the Bill Black that sang with Krupa and made one album of heartbreaking ballads? What a singer. Jonathan Schwartz is always playing that CD on his show, mostly Spring is Here. Great guitar, and I'd love to know who it is.

Hope I got the right guy........

Nope...bassist...started the Bill Black Combo after his split with Elvis in the late 50s. Died in the mid-60s. Paul McCartney owns his double bass today.

Black was one of the first pop bassists to embrace the Fender Electric Bass!

[fasstrack]

(Bill Black is another matter).

Is this the Bill Black that sang with Krupa and made one album of heartbreaking ballads? What a singer. Jonathan Schwartz is always playing that CD on his show, mostly Spring is Here. Great guitar, and I'd love to know who it is.

Hope I got the right guy........

Nope...bassist...started the Bill Black Combo after his split with Elvis in the late 50s. Died in the mid-60s. Paul McCartney owns his double bass today.

Black was one of the first pop bassists to embrace the Fender Electric Bass!

Like Monk Montgomery....

Yeah, I had the wrong guy. I can (gurgle, sob, sniffle) deal with it, I tell ya....

A temporary setback

[randyhersom]

Really though, I think you have to want to like it to like it. By that I don't mean discarding all preexisting sense of self or anything like that, I jsut mean that you gotta like the notion of music that is built almost entirely around/from rhythm, texture, and repetition and the creative use of gradual evolution of same. If you need a constantly changing melodic line, or a constantly changing anything for that matter, this stuff will only piss you off. It's there, but only sometimes, and it ain't the driving force of the music.

It's Gonna Rain

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