zen archer Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 And what the hell kind of deal is that?!?! One third-string 1B for another? And a worse one at that. They couldn't get one or two mediocre prospects for LaRoche? Then they'd be even with what they gave up for ten days of having him on the roster. Maybe they are sending Kotchman somewhere else? Unless he has options left and can be sent to Pawtucket, it makes no sense. And meanwhile, Rolen being traded to the Reds just puts the lie to that a-hole Blue Jay GM claiming that if they don't get what they want, they'll just go for it all next year with Halladay + all their other young pitchers coming back. They've got a shitty offense as it is, and they get rid of Rolen now? We may find out how good Theo's draft people are, because V-Mart did cost TWO first-rounders in Hagadone and Price. At least it will be a little while before they make this trade look bad, if that's how it turns out. The Indians are reporting that they want Masterson as a starter, also Carfado said that the key of the trade is Hagadone who is coming off Tommy John surgery BUT who had advanced to the #3 prospect in the Sox organization! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quincy Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Kotchman might be a better fielder. Otherwise they got 4 years younger in the LaRoche - Kotchman trade and got a guy who hits LHP a bit better for average than LaRoche (who at this point appears to be a straight platoon guy). Kotchman might be better able to handle those instances where he's announced as a PH and the opposing manager then brings in a lefty reliever. This is all small stuff but sometimes it makes a difference, and Kotchman earns less as well. A million here & a million there matters more now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen archer Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Kotchman might be a better fielder. Otherwise they got 4 years younger in the LaRoche - Kotchman trade and got a guy who hits LHP a bit better for average than LaRoche (who at this point appears to be a straight platoon guy). Kotchman might be better able to handle those instances where he's announced as a PH and the opposing manager then brings in a lefty reliever. This is all small stuff but sometimes it makes a difference, and Kotchman earns less as well. A million here & a million there matters more now. Financially it was a wash the Sox added 1 million in the deal so basically its 2 million a player also Kotchman has arbitration for the next 2 years and the Sox love that he has a good OBP. I wouldn't be surprised to see him next year at first on a daily basis with Youk at 3rd and Lowell being the platoon guy. This deal might be better than you think....Lowell is not gonna get any better, he can barely run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Crap We ain't got no pitching or a catcher!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 I don't see how you keep Kotchman on the bench, if can't be optioned and then brought back September 1. What is forgotten in all of this is that they sent Kotsay, their backup OF, away, and made Nick Green (NICK FUCKING GREEN, CAREER BACKUP INFIELDER) their fifth OF. What the hell do they do if Drew comes up lame and Baldelli can't play because of his medical issues? They're adding first basemen at a torrid clip and forgetting that their fourth outfielder has a substantial medical problem and they've got no one behind him! On top of that - they've traded Masterson away now. OK, he was probably the 12th guy in the bullpen, first out if the starter sucks but otherwise not getting the call unless they have to in extra innings. He was basically tied with Saito for last or next to last name called. But do they go with one fewer arm now? Kotchman has to be sent down, or traded. Or someone has to be moved. Otherwise, between Buchholz, Penny and Smoltz, they are going to wear out a bullpen that is already a man short! Bowden has to come up, and Kotchman has to be sent away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quincy Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Or worst ba after having the highest batting average the first two months?? can you look into that as well??? Thankfully that's beyond my abilities. And how do you play in 151 games, and only have 523 AB's even though you only walked 22 times the whole season??? He wasn't taken out for defensive purposes. Did offenses just suck that much??? Gee, some .300 hitters that year...no one even had 600 AB's. Barry Bonds struck out more than anyone else on that team, and that was only 74 times....different times for sure. He batted 6th, 7th or 8th in 1980. Tony Scott, Bobby Bonds and Reitz all had OBP just a tad over .300. On the flip side Ted Simmons & Keith Hernandez were a couple of borderline Hall of Famers, and Silent George Hendrick and Gary Templeton could play. On the bench all in their young 20s were Tommy Herr, Leon Durham and Terry Kennedy but the pitching was sad with 3,4 & 5 starters being Bob Sykes, Silvio Martinez and the promising John (who?) Fulgham blew out his rotor cuff. But looking over the roster you can see that with the right front office and manager things could happen. Enter the White Rat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quincy Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Quincy, this talk must bore the crap out of everyone but us! hey, remember Mike Tyson???? Not known for fighting or biting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BERIGAN Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Quincy, this talk must bore the crap out of everyone but us! hey, remember Mike Tyson???? Not known for fighting or biting. I you! In a completely non creepy way. Man, I remember a few times looking for his card, and never found it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zen archer Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 I don't see how you keep Kotchman on the bench, if can't be optioned and then brought back September 1. What is forgotten in all of this is that they sent Kotsay, their backup OF, away, and made Nick Green (NICK FUCKING GREEN, CAREER BACKUP INFIELDER) their fifth OF. What the hell do they do if Drew comes up lame and Baldelli can't play because of his medical issues? They're adding first basemen at a torrid clip and forgetting that their fourth outfielder has a substantial medical problem and they've got no one behind him! On top of that - they've traded Masterson away now. OK, he was probably the 12th guy in the bullpen, first out if the starter sucks but otherwise not getting the call unless they have to in extra innings. He was basically tied with Saito for last or next to last name called. But do they go with one fewer arm now? Kotchman has to be sent down, or traded. Or someone has to be moved. Otherwise, between Buchholz, Penny and Smoltz, they are going to wear out a bullpen that is already a man short! Bowden has to come up, and Kotchman has to be sent away. Unless they send him down to get steady playing time and then bring him up in Sept. , But I don't think they will do that . The Sox are really concerned with Lowell and Varitek being able to play ever day down the stretch. Look for Varitek to go on the DL at some point , the guy has an injured neck and Beckett couldn't believe he started the game when he pitched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldonm Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 A mention of Kenny Reitz, aka the Zamboni machine! Slowest player...ever??? Always liked him...he used to just tear the cover off the ball early in the year, then hit about .220 after the all star break. I could swear one year he was leading the league in hitting around June 1st, say .370...then sucked the rest of the year. bet you could find his stats early in each season! I liked him a lot too. I think Cardinal fans did too as the team got him back from SF after just one year away. As far as his "speed" it was too bad he never raced Brooks Robinson. Cardinal announcers loved to compare the two (range factor didn't exist back in those innocent days. ) I too remember him being hot in April, and what do you know, for once the memory wasn't made up! Batting Average for April (courtesy of retrosheet.org) 1974 - .417 1975 - .369 1976 - .369 (his season w/ the Giants) 1977 - .211 (oops, back w/ STL. Hits .366 in May.) 1978 - .315 1979 - .324 1980 - .397 (batted .195 for June & July) 1981 - .192 (now w/ Cubs) 1982 - w/ Pirates, does not bat in April, gets 10 AB in May & June and is out of baseball. Lifetime he was a .260 hitter who hit .314 in April. His worst month was September .243. Did not know that about Cairo Ill! Must have been to save fuel I guess??? Wonder how many arms were ruined trying to warm up on a 35 degree day in March! Oh I don't know, the average March temp is 73. Oh wait, that's Egypt. Having spent some August days in Little Egypt (Southern Illinois' nickname) I just assumed that summer heat & humidity was still hanging around to keep you warm in the winter. (I know better, but that summer weather is so wicked that I still have flashbacks.) Regarding ruined arms it must have been bad, look at Pete Gray. IMO Rose will never make the HOF If so it will be after he passes away IMO IMO too. Sorry all for passing on the Rose rumor. Dan Patrick sounded very convincing that day. ...loved Reitz back in the day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldonm Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 Red Sox are very close in a deal for Victor Martinez and Bucholz and Bard are not part of the deal looks like Masterson ....aaarrgghhh...I love Masterson....is Martinez that good? Giving up Masterson is giving up a lot of flexibility, as someone that could be an eighth inning guy (last year) or a long man/starter (this year - and he didn't do it very well this year either). In all seriousness Masterson slipped significantly in my eyes this year. V-Mart is a very good hitter with no real position, though he can play 1B and he catches. He's a substantial offensive weapon, the problem is that there is no place for him to play without sitting a regular everyday starter. What do they plan to do, sit Youkilis, Varitek, Lowell and Papi once a week? That's not a full week from Martinez, who is used to being a starter. I'd love to find out that since they didn't give up Clay or Bard that somehow they are going to pull of Halladay, but the reality is that they have less than an hour to deal poor Adam LaRoche, who came to Fenway, looked at the Monster, and smiled, and now is going to end up somewhere else less than 10 days later. Unless of course he is going to Cleveland since I am pretty sure they need a 1B now - weren't Garko and V-Mart sharing the position? I will say this - with V-Mart signed for next year, they will either ease him in as primary catcher over 'Tek (because even if they don't exercise the team option on Varitek, Varitek has a player option) or else look seriously at sending Lowell away in a Lugo-style 100% salary dump, as no one will take Lowell with his bad hip. The Phils must be ecstatic that Lowell didn't take their offer in 2007, or they'd be on the hook to him for two more years. ....is it 2010 already ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalupa Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 And meanwhile, Rolen being traded to the Reds just puts the lie to that a-hole Blue Jay GM claiming that if they don't get what they want, they'll just go for it all next year with Halladay + all their other young pitchers coming back. They've got a shitty offense as it is, and they get rid of Rolen now? Ricciardi is an ass. This was his best chance to maximize Halladay's value and he didn't get the trade done. Now he's got to pay the rest of Halladay's salary this season(another $5 Million) and unload him for less in return in the winter. Toronto fans should be pissed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted July 31, 2009 Report Share Posted July 31, 2009 ....is it 2010 already ? Couldn't ignore the trade deadline BS. I am done but reserve the right to return solely to talk about the Cubs. That ought to annoy you even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom in RI Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Regarding LaRoche v. Kochman it was noted somewhere today that LaRoche is more of a free swinger and Kochman is more in line with the organizational approach of grinding at bats and generating a better OBP. I should think the Martinez trade will be good for Masterson since starters make more money than relievers, still Masterson needs to develop a better approach to left handers. From what I hear and read Victor Martinez is not a long term solution at catcher. Tito will have his hands full getting everyone playing time. Still, the Yankees are not going to keep up their current pace. I believe the Sox are in good position to get to the post season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 And I totally disagree. The night after the big trade afternoon, Smoltz gets his ass handed to him again. 5 runs to Baltimore, and on what ought to be his last pitch of the day, Ellsbury saves his ass from a crushing home run by Aubrey Huff. And his next start is against the Yankees in the little bandbox. Over/under is ten. Ten runs also Ten homers I am taking the over and the under, respectively. Its also an over/under of ten games back of first place by the end of the season. I got over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Pads trade Jake Peavey to the White Sox! Whoa. I never saw that one coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldonm Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 ....is it 2010 already ? Couldn't ignore the trade deadline BS. I am done but reserve the right to return solely to talk about the Cubs. That ought to annoy you even more. I'm not annoyed; just having some fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 ....is it 2010 already ? Couldn't ignore the trade deadline BS. I am done but reserve the right to return solely to talk about the Cubs. That ought to annoy you even more. I'm not annoyed; just having some fun! Glad to be of service. Three in the loss column to the Cubbies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 I’ve largely been missing in action in this thread—seems appropriate given that the Indians have also been missing in action for the entire 2009 season. I knew there would be trades—not at all surprised by shipping away Mark DeRosa, Rafael Betancourt, or even Ryan Garko. Don’t yet know what to make of the trades of Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez. Still a bit numb. These are no longer the Indians I know. For Lee (along with under achieving young outfielder Ben Francisco), Tribe supposedly received the 2nd, third, fourth, and tenth best prospects in the Phillie organization. At the same time, the Tribe didn’t get any of the players coveted by Toronto (Drabek and Happ). So is the Phillie organization that stacked with prospects? Did Tribe walk away with a lot less than they could have gotten for the AL Cy Young Award winner who coleads MLB in quality starts (and gets little/no run support)? Any Phillie fans have opinions to offer on the quartet the Tribe received for Lee and Ben Francisco: right-handers Carlos Carrasco, Jason Knapp, if Jason Donald and c Lou Marson? Some think these guys will be starting soon (next year). I’m skeptical (but really uninformed). The irritating thing about this is that the Tribe could have contended next year in the mediocre AL Central, but these deals more than likely set them back at least another full year (and probably longer). Nothing like running up the white flag for 2010 at the 2009 trading deadline. Lee and Martinez both had very affordable salaries for next year. This wasn’t a walk year situation like Sabathia. Paul Hoynes, the beat writer for the Plain Dealer, however, reminds us that a team does get more in a trade when the player has more than half a season left on his current contract. The classic example of this is the great Colon for Sizemore, Lee, and Brandon Philllips trade—Colon had another year on his contract when the Tribe dealt him. He was dealt again the following year to Chicago for Rocky Biddle, Orlando Hernandez, and Jeff Liefer. So maybe this was the best time to move the two best players on the Indians. Still it’s revolting. Who’s left on the Tribe? Grady Sizemore of the .230 BA. Shin-Soo Choo who still owes his nation military service? Not much reason to head to the Jake (or Regressive Field as some now refer to it). Perhaps these trades for youth will all be worth it. But I’m a bit stunned. Feels like the old days of being a AAA club for the Yankees or RedSox. Had hoped Tribe would be closer to Bos/NY than KC/Pittsburgh. But Royalty is where they are now. Window of opportunity much narrower for small market teams and Tribe is bailing out now. Did I see somewhere that each current division leader also now leads its division in payroll? This is a lot more frustrating than losing an extra inning game and falling a colossal 2 games out of first with only 60 left to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldonm Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 ....is it 2010 already ? Couldn't ignore the trade deadline BS. I am done but reserve the right to return solely to talk about the Cubs. That ought to annoy you even more. I'm not annoyed; just having some fun! Glad to be of service. Three in the loss column to the Cubbies! ...oops...looks like the Cubs lost again tonight...and the cards won! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 ...and Saturday is Victor Martinez bobblehead night at the Tigers/Indians contest. They are still planning to hand them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 Those should be collector's items Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalupa Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 I’ve largely been missing in action in this thread—seems appropriate given that the Indians have also been missing in action for the entire 2009 season. I knew there would be trades—not at all surprised by shipping away Mark DeRosa, Rafael Betancourt, or even Ryan Garko. Don’t yet know what to make of the trades of Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez. Still a bit numb. These are no longer the Indians I know. For Lee (along with under achieving young outfielder Ben Francisco), Tribe supposedly received the 2nd, third, fourth, and tenth best prospects in the Phillie organization. At the same time, the Tribe didn’t get any of the players coveted by Toronto (Drabek and Happ). So is the Phillie organization that stacked with prospects? Did Tribe walk away with a lot less than they could have gotten for the AL Cy Young Award winner who coleads MLB in quality starts (and gets little/no run support)? Any Phillie fans have opinions to offer on the quartet the Tribe received for Lee and Ben Francisco: right-handers Carlos Carrasco, Jason Knapp, if Jason Donald and c Lou Marson? Some think these guys will be starting soon (next year). I’m skeptical (but really uninformed). The Phillies farm system is stacked according to Philly media and ESPN. At one time Carrasco was considered the arm of the future for the Phils but he took a step backwards this season. He should have made the big league club this spring but pitched very poorly. He's only 22 so there's still time for him to figure it out. He's someone, like Gavin Floyd, who might benefit from the change of scenery. Donald was blocked by Utley and Rollins. Mike Schmidt worked w/ him a lot during spring training and LOVES the guy. I think he will definitely be a solid utility player at the major league level someday, maybe even a starter. Marson was the starting catcher on the U.S. Olympic team last summer. His defense is suspect but he's got a pretty good bat from what I understand. Don't know any thing about Knapp except that he's 18, 6'5", and throws smoke. One of the stories I read on ESPN quoted a scout who thought Knapp could be a "Roy Halladay type pitcher someday." Now wouldn't that be ironic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Posted August 1, 2009 Report Share Posted August 1, 2009 thanks JH. Here's hoping Martinez and Lee perform well for their new teams, and that the collection of prospects meet/exceed everyone's expectations. Cliff Lee brought his arm...and his bat to the NL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave James Posted August 2, 2009 Report Share Posted August 2, 2009 Anyone want to do an over/under on how long Dan can remain decoupled from this thread if the Red Sux keep winning and the Yankees keep losing? Up over and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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