bluesForBartok Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 (edited) A fine record. Certainly one of the greatest of the 60s Blue Notes and an important one for all the players involved. Like many of you I was immediately hooked by the tunes and the elasticity in which the players render them. I think Tony at this stage sounds very similar to his mentor Alan Dawson (Booker Ervin's Freedom Book & Space Book). I think some of you are on to something with regard to the "Boston thing." There's no question that geography plays a certain part in how a player develops and with regard to the Boston players there seems to be the hard edged blues / r&b influence that was apparent in all of the northern cities (Detroit, Chicago, Philly etc.) but with an intellectual, almost "avant-garde" approach for lack of a better term. Certainly the academic nature of a city like Boston must have had everything to do with that. I mean, Sam attended Boston Conservatory and then you had Gigi Gryce, Cecil Taylor and Andy McGhee at the New England Conservatory and Herb Pomeroy and Charlie Mariano at the Schillinger House (Berklee). On top of that you had Serge's mother Madame Chaloff teaching a lot of these guys including Dick Twardzick who displayed a very modern classical approach to improvisation. I've had a chance to speak at great length to Herb, Andy McGhee, Ray Santisi and a few others about the scene back then and all of them describe it as a very heavy and heady time. Herb discussed with me his big band which at various times included Serge, Jaki, Mariano, Sam, Joe Gordon so you can just imagine what a think tank that must have been and Ray Santisi has a lot of stories about playing with Tony at Connelly's in the South End and also Pete LaRoca who also resided in Boston for a while. Oh to be a fly on the wall... Edited November 20, 2003 by bluesForBartok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 I'm sure that my comments will put me in a distinct minority here (and probably elsewhere, too). Anyway, here goes: I like this recording a lot. Sam Rivers plays with what seems like unlimited imagination, passion, and energy. However, I just don't enjoy his musical companions here. I normally love Jaki Byard's playing, but I feel he sounds somewhat out of place here. The imagination is there, but the energy isn't. I don't know if it's an unfamiliarity with the tunes or what, but his playing just doesn't match Sam Rivers' playing for me. I also don't enjoy Tony Williams' playing on this record. Tony Williams has always struck me as a drummer who plays on top of the music, rather than digging into it. To my ears, he functions as an accompanist on this recording, rather than driving the band, and a drummer who drove this band might have helped. No comment on Ron Carter, other than he's there. I believe that this was Sam River's first record as a leader, so I'm sure that he was up for it - it certainly sounds so. When I listen to Fuschia Swing Song, I'm listening to Sam Rivers' playing, and that's about it. That's enough to keep me going back to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pryan Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 This thread spurred me to give this one a listen yesterday, and my feelings are quite the opposite from those of the previous poster. I really enjoyed hearing these amazing musicians interact and create beautiful statements of improvisation. Byard, in particular, seemed to be most adept at "thinking on his feet", listening intently to every phrase that Rivers would play in his solos and countering said phrase with a complementary one of his own. Tony Williams might be seen as more of an "accompanist" on this album in comparison with NEFERTITI or THE SORCERER, for example, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. His drumming is, as always, superlative and his brief solos are brilliant in their economy and wealth of ideas. The same can be said of about Ron Carter. Amazing album, great choice as AOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmirBagachelles Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Sorry for this rant, I do love the record dearly, but the sound is a letdown. Where is Jaki Byard in Rudy's mix? I think Rudy just wasn't in touch w/ mid-60s ensemble jazz and musical dialog, and as a result it sounds more like an old time BN session, instead of a crackling quartet. I dealt away my TOCJ copy last yr. How does the JRVG remastering A/B vs. the Conn? Did Rudy do the Conn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Skid Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 On behalf of all the lurkers and/or jazz newbies on this board, I offer my heartfelt thanks to all who have posted on this thread. I recently purchased this CD, and all of the comments here have added to my enjoyment and understanding of a truly wonderful session. Did Rudy do the Conn? The Conn says "Mastered in 24-bit by Ron McMaster". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I've been spinning this one quite a bit lately in order to post something here. I'm not a big fan of Sam Rivers, but this is a terrific cd for sure. Everyone was definitely clicking that evening. I am particularly impressed with Jaki Byard and Tony Williams. My only knowledge of Byard comes from his work with Booker Ervin and I cannot remember him playing as well as he does here. (Granted, I've got to really listen to those Ervin sessions as I've only heard them a few times.) Byard sounds a lot like Andrew Hill on this session. There's a little bit of Cecil Taylor as well, and he's got some of the musical logic of Monk. He is simply a delight to listen to on this album. Williams is awesome! No other word. I love his cymbal work. Rivers plays well to my ears as well. I don't care for music that is really far "out" but this is simply good quality music, and there's enough "in" to satisfy me. I just think this was one of the times where the musicians were really working well together. All the biorythms were in concert! I also agree with a previous poster regarding the sound Byard's piano. It could definitely have been recorded louder. I have no comments to make about Ron Carter at this time. I was kinda focusing on everyone else. We'll save that for further listenings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent, Paris Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I think some of you are on to something with regard to the "Boston thing." There's no question that geography plays a certain part in how a player develops and with regard to the Boston players there seems to be the hard edged blues / r&b influence that was apparent in all of the northern cities (Detroit, Chicago, Philly etc.) but with an intellectual, almost "avant-garde" approach for lack of a better term. The liner notes in the booklet to the Allen Eager issue on Uptown are quite interesting to read regarding the Boston scene during the bop era (ca. 1947) with lot of information regarding Twardzik and other less-known "local" players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 On a thread about reading, Lon talked about how the same book can have a different effect on you at different times in your life. I'm reminded of that because it just occured to me that the same disc is going to sound different depending on when you're first exposed to the music. I've heard other, more recent Rivers stuff, which I figured would prepare me for this. If I had heard this one a few years ago, I would have been amazed, and probaby scared off. However, my first listen was when I picked up the newest release, and comparing the disc to it's reputation led to an interesting impression: I was disappointed at how conservative it sounded to me. Strange... Mind you, I still like it, and at points Rivers gives me what I was expecting. I'm not sure the other artists do, but all in all I'll give it a thumbs up. I have to remind myself that this was recorded almost forty years ago, don't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Just picked this one yesterday. Great disc! Is it just my copy (one of those blue-ish Spanish Time Life Blue Notes) or is Ron Carter´s bass recorded at a very, very, very low volume??? I can hardly hear him (even when soloing or comping with Tony Williams) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Just picked this one yesterday. Great disc! Is it just my copy (one of those blue-ish Spanish Time Life Blue Notes) or is Ron Carter´s bass recorded at a very, very, very low volume??? I can hardly hear him (even when soloing or comping with Tony Williams) I was not able to revisit this one (neither when actually AOTW nor ever since) - however I remember there was discussion (maybe at the beginning of this thread?) that the sound of the new Connoisseur edition of this one (copy controlled when you pick it up in europe) was a major step forward in comparison to the Mosaic (which I have). The Spanish edition might use the Mosaic of simply the old McMaster remasterings (if these are not one and the same), so this might explain the problem. ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 If the sound *is* a major improvment in the Conn, then I will have to pick that up. I totally missed this AotW back when it happened, but what a marvelous album! Somebody on the Miles Davis list suggested that "Cyclic Episode" sounds a lot like the 2nd Quintet with Miles laying out -- Sam even sounds a little like Wayne here. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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