West Coast Jazz Recommendations

[Big Beat Steve]

@Larry Kart:

This thread has evolved far too fast for me to catch up so no need to get into every angle, but thanks for getting back to my post yesterday in such detail. And what struck me about Jim Sangrey posts that have accumulated since yesterday (which word my own impressions of the whole subject pretty accurately, FWIW), my basic impression of Ted Gioia's book really was summed by him pretty well too:

I got no such impression nor is that what I admire it for. There's no attempt that I can remember to diminish the music of the "West Coast Jazz" music at all. In fact, it is largely spoken of in quite admirable terms. Credit not only given, but quite often enhanced. If you're telling me that this book was written by a guy who was not a fan of, or harbored any beef/agenda against, "West Coast Jazz", I'd have to ask you if we were reading the same book.

On a side note, I listened to that West Coast vs East Coast LP on MGM last night that I had mentioned yesterday. Its concept is a bit gimmicky and maybe this reflects in the music but on first listening (and not trying to dissect it) I actually found one or two of the Eastern versions of the tunes played to sound more "Western" than the Western versions. Just my impression, though.

Ever since the early 1950's - over 60 years ago - West Coast Jazz has been a recognized and reasonably well understood term within the jazz community. it had a certain stylistic sensibility, though not all example of WCJ were completely the same. Some examples of WCJ were more highly arranged than others, some of the arranged music has more obvious classical music influences. There were also WCJ musicians playing gigs and making records with very meager, if any, formal arrangements.

That musical style was centered geographically in the Los Angeles area.

Within the same time period, jazz was being played in California by a variety of musicians in styles not generally considered to be part of the WCJ style.

It strikes me as an example of revisionist history to now, so many decades later, redefine the reality of what actually was a part of jazz history.

I am not quite sure I understand what you are getting at when you speak of "redefining the reality of what actually was a part of jazz history". Do you find it "revisionist" to narrow down the scope what is considered as being typical WCJ to heavily arranged or even classically tinged jazz now, or do you find it "revisionist" to expand the scope to include black California artists of the 50s, for example, who may have not been typical "Lighthouse/beachside WCJ" exponents but very much present on the 50s California jazz scene as such?

I am all for using contemporary sources as primary sources in exploring history (50s jazz in this case) but to what degree should we let what the period headlines and printed features accessible to posterity splurted out back then dictate our evaluation of that history to the exclusion of most everything else? Couldn't it have been that what had been touted as WCJ then by those who had the muscle to get their stories in print was part and the core of the story but not the full story, and if you looked closer (possibly with the scholarly approach of a dyed-in-the-wool historian, for better or worse) you'd find there was much more, though maybe not making quite the same headlines everywhere - and YET it was there? Isn't this what is done in any other fields of history (including in other areas of jazz history)? Where does historical presentation and evaluation (or "archeology", if you will) end and where does "revisionism" begin? I'd really like to know, because I have no set, "one-approach-fits-all" opinion on this either.

You see, one aspect I had mentioned briefly before (because it touches on two of my favorite styles of music from that period) would be this: How come the Lighthouse All Stars did recordings like "Big Boy", "Big Girl", "M.B.B." (More Big Boy) first on Skylark and then on Contemporary? How come these recordings made it into their book? They are all-out sax-led honkers mimicking (in the way whites were apt to do) those honking saxes of black Westcoast R&B acts like Big Jay McNeely. What kind of interaction or influencing was there? No matter how much these recordings were a sort of "fun project" for the Lighthouse All Stars (much like their somewhat later, even fiercer recordings as "Boots Brown & The Blockbusters" on Groove and then RCA), I have a feeling that such tunes might have featured in their live book. Maybe to keep the dancers happy at their live gigs? After all there was some interaction and cross-pollination between black and white musicians in California at that time even in R&B (cf. the integrated band led by drummer Jimmy Wright - often spelled Wrieght). And the audiences at many of those honking R&B concerts often were integrated from the very early 50s too (almost before Alan Freed started his thing on the East Coast) - see that famous photo series by Bob Willoughby as ONE example.

This is a minor side aspect of WCJ but it IS an aspect, and doesn't it at least show that WCJ artists did do things that may not have been in the typical WCJ mold yet were part of what they did back then, and wouldn't this be an aspect that would be left for posterity to be covered? It would not change the essence of what is understood to be WCJ but it just might add a little extra to the picture. Would it be "revisionist" to dwell on this now or wouldn't it rather be "reactionary" (or whatever term might fit) NOT to dwell on this now because at the time such cases of breaking down the racial barriers were hushed over in the media and were therefore not perceived widely then?

Edited February 4, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[ArtSalt]

@Larry Kart:

This thread has evolved far too fast for me to catch up so no need to get into every angle, but thanks for getting back to my post yesterday in such detail. And what struck me about Jim Sangrey posts that have accumulated since yesterday (which word my own impressions of the whole subject pretty accurately, FWIW), my basic impression of Ted Gioia's book really was summed by him pretty well too:

I got no such impression nor is that what I admire it for. There's no attempt that I can remember to diminish the music of the "West Coast Jazz" music at all. In fact, it is largely spoken of in quite admirable terms. Credit not only given, but quite often enhanced. If you're telling me that this book was written by a guy who was not a fan of, or harbored any beef/agenda against, "West Coast Jazz", I'd have to ask you if we were reading the same book.

Gioia's position is clear: New York's dominance of the jazz world was challenged only once, for a brief period after WWII by musicians on the West Coast. Ultimately, the East Coast regained the title and subsequently musical critics have pigeon-holed the WCJ with simplifications, generalisations and catchphrases. His mission is to challenge this consensus by asking the pertinent questions on was there a West Coast jazz scene? How was it different to East Coast jazz? Was it a fabrication of Hollywood producers (i.e. Dick Bock and Lester Koenig) and subsequent marketing hoax? He places these questions in the context of the music, musicians, social situation, clubs, culture and quite importantly, geography and IMCO only one element is missing: climate.

I think he also aims to rehabilitate WCJ for our listening pleasure.

[Larry Kart]

Big Beat Steve -- Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I've just about finished re-reading the Gioia book and eventually may try to come up with a broader response to it and to some of the other related issues that have come up here. Here, though, an interim report, which may turn out to be all of it.

First, I did mischaracterize the Gioia book to some considerable degree, but my memory of "West Coast Jazz" the book as something of a reparations job was conditioned by several things. First, by my lived-at-the-time experience of WCJ as the rather tightly knit style that at this point I probably don't need to characterize further any more. Second, by the fact that age 72, having taken in over the years a good deal of the recorded sounds of jazz that were made on the whole West Coast in the era Gioia is writing about, plus a host of information about those sounds and musicians and the various social scenes that they emerged from that I took in over the years from liner notes, other books, jazz magazines, etc., (and here I'm speaking only for myself) I really didn't need to be told by Gioia a large percentage of the information that "West Coast Jazz" the book conveys. I already knew about Sonny Criss, Dexter Gordon, Teddy Edwards, the Central Ave. scene in general, et al. and had of course thought about the musical and social relationship and/or non-relationship between those players and this scenes and the players and scenes of what was commonly labeled WCJ. Beyond that apology/semi-explanation, though, I just feel too damn tired, at least at this moment, to say much more.

Gioia BTW does states quite clearly on p. 363 what his rationale is. After aptly characterizing on the previous page the WCJ style as I and many others knew it at the time, he writes: "But there was other music on the coast as well. And not only was it just as much a part of the story of West Coast jazz, but it is in many ways the story that most needs to be stressed.... There was the West Coast sound, but there was much else besides." [My emphasis]

Gioia continues: "But after this is acknowledged, one is forced ask whether, given this diversity, there was really anything unifying to this music, anything that would justify concern with these musicians as 'West Coast' jazz musicians, instead of, say, individual players tied together only by a coincidental, but hardly crucial, shared geography. The answer to this question must be an unambiguous yes. Not because those musicians shared the same musical goals and precepts -- they most obviously did not -- bur rather because they shared a group of institutions essential to West Coast jazz. The real story of West Coast jazz as a somewhat unified phenomenon, may well be the story of these institutions -- or, in some cases, their notable absence -- institutions that were crucial in establishing West Coast jazz in the postwar years. [My emphasis]

"It is no exaggeration to say that what made West Coast jazz possible, first and foremost, was a small group of local record companies dedicated to presenting the area's musicians to the nation at large. Without the Dial, Fantasy, Pacific, Contemporary, and Capitol labels, this music would not have happened and this book would never have been written."

OK, those last two paragraphs in particular are true up to a point -- but what point is that? On that, unless I'm mistaken here, Goia is more or less mum, even though he has just said that this is "the real story of West Coast jazz." Further, that definitive-in-tone-and-substance statement comes on p. 363 of a 369-page book! Did Gioia arrive at this conclusion only in the act of writing those sentences and then realize that either, in the light of what he had just concluded, he would have to go back and rethink/reshape/rewrite much of what he had already written or just let this statement, and the few further pages he then adds to it, stand as is? As something of a seat-of-the-pants writer myself, I sympathize what what seems to me to have been Gioia's plight here, but I can't say I'm satisfied.

For one thing, Gioia's conclusion not only is significantly left unexplored by him, but it also seems to mean that, in his view, the most important -- note that "unambiguous yes" -- "unifying" aspect of all this otherwise diverse music were the institutions that selectively presented or chose not to present it to the public at large. A worthy subject for exploration to be sure, but where does that leave the music? My experience (or perhaps my prejudice) always has been that the actual music -- or any actual work of art for that matter -- tends to "speak" intensely, in abundant detail and with great depth, and that it is this "speech" that one ought to pay attention to first and foremost. Yes, this "speech" can be partially blocked, or misunderstood, or ignored, or you name it, but it is there, if only because it is the very nature of art and artists to be expressive -- and I would say, expressive in ways and on wavelengths that at once include and often exceed much or even all of the information that can be conveyed through rational expository discourse, though of course I and others then will then try to speak of that expressive "speech" in words, for better or worse.

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks, Larry. Food for thought ... but I for one wil certainly need time to digest this in full.

I remember that final chapter and now that you dwell on it I seem to remember too that it struck me at the time I first read it (in 1994 or 1995) that quite a bit of the essence of that final chapter (probably the statements that you quote) ought to have been stated in the introduction.

That said, I agree with what ArtSalt said about the basic intentions of Gioia's book too. And to me this does totally contradict the quotes you highlighted. It may well be, as you say, he avoided elaborating on it because this would have required a different structure for the entire book, but on the other hand it could just as well have been a case of offering the reader the near-full spectrum of "Jazz on the West Coast" (as opposed to WCJ in the stricter sense of the term as used by A/R men and contemporary writers) from that period for the reader to choose which field he'd like to explore more in depth in order to get a fuller picture. This might explain why he did not elaborate on this, and maybe the conclusions that you feel were left pending and unexplored would have required another - sociological - book on the subject anyway.

Now, just to get the full picture, and without wanting to take too much of your time, how would you rate Robert Gordon's book on the same subject by comparison?

He bases his narrative much more on the surviving recorded evidence of WCJ and may therefore not have faced the dilemma at all that Gioia (acording to your conclusions) may have giotten into when he summarized the conclusions of his own work. Good or bad?

Having said and read all this, I am really beginning to regret it (again) that the volume on "West Coast Cool Jazz" that had been announced in "Bebop - The Essential Listening Companion" published in the Third Ear series (Mille Freeman Books) in the 90s did not materialize. Those "Swing" and "Bebop" books could have done with follow-ups!

Edited February 4, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[Larry Kart]

Think I read the Gordon book but don't recall it much at all. See if I can find a copy at a local library.

BTW, to clarify this passage from Gioia that I quoted above:

"But after this is acknowledged, one is forced ask whether, given this diversity, there was really anything unifying to this music, anything that would justify concern with these musicians as 'West Coast' jazz musicians, instead of, say, individual players tied together only by a coincidental, but hardly crucial, shared geography. The answer to this question must be an unambiguous yes. Not because those musicians shared the same musical goals and precepts -- they most obviously did not -- bur rather because they shared a group of institutions essential to West Coast jazz. The real story of West Coast jazz as a somewhat unified phenomenon, may well be the story of these institutions -- or, in some cases, their notable absence -- institutions that were crucial in establishing West Coast jazz in the postwar years. [My emphasis]

I think "these musicians" should be something like "all these musicians." Further, if by "these musicians" he is in fact speaking of both Sonny Criss, Teddy Edwards, Harold Land and their many musical confreres and of the practitioners of the West Coast jazz style as it was commonly regarded at the time, of course the individual members of each those groups were tied together socially and musically in many ways; it's that the members of each of those groups tended not to be tied together musically and socially with members of the other group.

[JSngry]

I think he does a good enough job delineating/discussing what these "institutions" were

• SUCCESS - Record labels with very open-minded owners. The earliest Mingus and the earliest Ornette were documented by LA-based labels. Contemporary recorded Vernon Duke's classical works AND Cecil Taylor, Dick Bock did those Shank/Almeida things, Koenig did the Shelley Manne free sides, both early in the 1950s. Tampa, Mode, Dootone, how many others, if you could play, you could get a date, it seems. Wasn't it Chewy who said that Tampa(?) was primarily distributed at grocery store? Seems to me that such an environment served whatever "sanctioned" social segregation was in effect by creating enough outlets for everybody that if one wants to get a balanced picture, one can.
• FAILURE - Lack of nationally syndicated press based in the area -Gioia really makes the case, I think, that a lot of the negative preconceptions about this music(s) were due to a critical inability to grasp the region falvor, and therefore also, perhaps, the true "essence" of the music(s), which in any of their forms were neither wholly removed from nor identical to the "East Coast" manifestation of esssence (s). Result - not complete picture painted, full appreciations not given, lots of peoples getting easy-answer stereotypes instead of the rich tapestry that is actually there.

I'm not rereading the entire book, but it also seem to me that somewhere in his discussion about Eric Dolphy, he points out traits that Dolphy had that were quintessentially "West Coast", things like classical knowledge/studies, an interest in doubling, an eagerness to alter standard forms, things like that. Never mind the socialization aspect (only some of which would have been voluntary), there's a case to be made that this stuff was just "in the air" in LA at that time, that even if any given individual did not "go there", that it was still known to them and and was a factor in how they did go where they did go.

Also, regional flayva - Frank Butler swung like mad, but he did not swing like Philly Joe, nor did LeRoy Vinegar drive the bus like Paul Chambers did. those guys had regional flayvah as well. Note also - Art Farmer.

Won't say it's a perfect (or perfectly-written book), just that I took away from it things that I see to reason to let go of. Basic premise stated and delivered very well, imo.

Past that - how the hell do you read an almost 375 page book overnight? I couldn't do that even back when I read better than I did anything else? Color me boggled!

Bottom line, ultimately, glad you lost the reparations nightmare. I just did not see where that was coming from.

[mjazzg]

For someone who knows little of this subject this discussion is absolutely fascinating. Thanks everyone.

I'm off to find a copy of this Gioia book. After that I know I'll be delving deeper into the music than I have so far

[Larry Kart]

I think he does a good enough job delineating/discussing what these "institutions" were

• SUCCESS - Record labels with very open-minded owners. The earliest Mingus and the earliest Ornette were documented by LA-based labels. Contemporary recorded Vernon Duke's classical works AND Cecil Taylor, Dick Bock did those Shank/Almeida things, Koenig did the Shelley Manne free sides, both early in the 1950s. Tampa, Mode, Dootone, how many others, if you could play, you could get a date, it seems. Wasn't it Chewy who said that Tampa(?) was primarily distributed at grocery store? Seems to me that such an environment served whatever "sanctioned" social segregation was in effect by creating enough outlets for everybody that if one wants to get a balanced picture, one can.
• FAILURE - Lack of nationally syndicated press based in the area -Gioia really makes the case, I think, that a lot of the negative preconceptions about this music(s) were due to a critical inability to grasp the region falvor, and therefore also, perhaps, the true "essence" of the music(s), which in any of their forms were neither wholly removed from nor identical to the "East Coast" manifestation of esssence (s). Result - not complete picture painted, full appreciations not given, lots of peoples getting easy-answer stereotypes instead of the rich tapestry that is actually there.

I'm not rereading the entire book, but it also seem to me that somewhere in his discussion about Eric Dolphy, he points out traits that Dolphy had that were quintessentially "West Coast", things like classical knowledge/studies, an interest in doubling, an eagerness to alter standard forms, things like that. Never mind the socialization aspect (only some of which would have been voluntary), there's a case to be made that this stuff was just "in the air" in LA at that time, that even if any given individual did not "go there", that it was still known to them and and was a factor in how they did go where they did go.

Also, regional flayva - Frank Butler swung like mad, but he did not swing like Philly Joe, nor did LeRoy Vinegar drive the bus like Paul Chambers did. those guys had regional flayvah as well. Note also - Art Farmer.

Won't say it's a perfect (or perfectly-written book), just that I took away from it things that I see to reason to let go of. Basic premise stated and delivered very well, imo.

Past that - how the hell do you read an almost 375 page book overnight? I couldn't do that even back when I read better than I did anything else? Color me boggled!

Bottom line, ultimately, glad you lost the reparations nightmare. I just did not see where that was coming from.

I can read VERY fast when I have to and, in particular, when I'm looking for a certain kind of thing, as I was this time. A glance more or less usually tells me whether there's any of that kind of thing on a particular page; if there isn't, onwards -- though of course I will linger if it's otherwise interesting.

A detailed account of what it was like at a good many independent jazz labels of the '50s (or within jazz enclaves at major labels of the time) is a book I'd snap up. Things must have been particularly off the wall at Liberty under or around Harry Babasin (this after Babasin’s Nocturne label days with drummer Roy Harte), witness “Jazz Mad, featuring The Unpredictable Steve White”:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3dkhm5PPmY

or Buddy Childers’ “Sam Songs,” where all the tunes have “Sam” in their names for some reason e.g. “Sam Metrically, “My Wild Irish Sam,” “Three Sam in a Fountain.”

(some nice Herbie Steward from “Sam Songs” here)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PW_7Toj-pQ&spfreload=10

I’ve always been curious about what a guy like Jack Lewis, at RCA in the ‘50s, was like. He sure turned out a lot of stuff. Must have been a Jim and Andy’s/Charlie’s Tavern regular.

Tom Stewart, sometime tenor horn player, A&R man at ABC-Paramount, I think.

And on and on.

[Peter Friedman]

Let me try one other example to make the point I along with Larry, and John L. have been trying to make.

The Tristano School which is generally understood to be made of of the musicians who studied with and were

heavily influenced by Lennie Tristano.

Names most closely associated with the Tristano School include players such as Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Don Ferrara, Ted Brown

Peter Ind, Ronnie Ball,Sal Mosca,Jeff Morton along with others. But here as with what I have been calling WCJ, the boundries were not rigid and were in fact very loose. Many other musicians studied briefly with Tristano, but veered away into other directions.

To follow what Jim has been arguing, the definition of the Tristano School has to be inclusive of any and all who spent any time

With Lennie and his closest disciples.

So now Kenny Clarke and Oscar Pettiford and Philly Joe Jones and quite a large number of other should henceforth be defined as members of the Tristano School (style) of jazz. These layers are the equivilent of Soony Criss, Teddy Edwards, Erc Dolphy, etc.

Or is, as with WCJ, the Tristano School label just another ilustration of marketing?

I guess after this I need to call it quits on this WCJ topic as I have made my points and will just have to agree to disagree with those who see it quite differently.

[Larry Kart]

Some Jack Lewis info:

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?p=623710

A passing mention of Lewis in this nice Mark Meyers interview with Sol Schlinger (good stories here):

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?p=623710

[Teasing the Korean]

I read Gioia's book ages ago, and for the most part, I liked it.

One area where I found it lacking was that he barely touched on the proximity of Hollywood and film industry. He did not discuss how Hollywood film scores may have influenced various west coast composers, arrangers, and musicians, nor did he go into much detail about their contributions to film and TV scoring after Peter Gunn opened the doors. I do remember him dismissively describing a favorite Rugolo arrangement as - and I'm paraphrasing - "the soundtrack to a film that the listener cannot see," or some such nonsense.

I also don't like Gioia's mustache, but that's another topic.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Let me try one other example to make the point I along with Larry, and John L. have been trying to make.

The Tristano School which is generally understood to be made of of the musicians who studied with and were

heavily influenced by Lennie Tristano.

Names most closely associated with the Tristano School include players such as Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Don Ferrara, Ted Brown

Peter Ind, Ronnie Ball,Sal Mosca,Jeff Morton along with others. But here as with what I have been calling WCJ, the boundries were not rigid and were in fact very loose. Many other musicians studied briefly with Tristano, but veered away into other directions.

To follow what Jim has been arguing, the definition of the Tristano School has to be inclusive of any and all who spent any time

With Lennie and his closest disciples.

So now Kenny Clarke and Oscar Pettiford and Philly Joe Jones and quite a large number of other should henceforth be defined as members of the Tristano School (style) of jazz. These layers are the equivilent of Soony Criss, Teddy Edwards, Erc Dolphy, etc.

Or is, as with WCJ, the Tristano School label just another ilustration of marketing?

I guess after this I need to call it quits on this WCJ topic as I have made my points and will just have to agree to disagree with those who see it quite differently.

Big difference between having a "school" with your name on it and an entire coast ceded to you due to an increasingly obsolete tunnelvision!

[JSngry]

I read Gioia's book ages ago, and for the most part, I liked it.

One area where I found it lacking was that he barely touched on the proximity of Hollywood and film industry. He did not discuss how Hollywood film scores may have influenced various west coast composers, arrangers, and musicians, nor did he go into much detail about their contributions to film and TV scoring after Peter Gunn opened the doors. I do remember him dismissively describing a favorite Rugolo arrangement as - and I'm paraphrasing - "the soundtrack to a film that the listener cannot see," or some such nonsense.

Full quote (context the end of the "Artistry In Rhythm" band and the new "Progressive Jazz" outfit):

Although many critics expressed doubts about the band's direction,most of the fans remained in Kenton's corner.In 1947, the band won the Downbeat poll, with many individual members of the group again copping high honors, and Metronome named the group its top big-band for the second consecutive year. This time the critics were closer to the truth. Despite the acclaim of a boisterous fan base, the band's work from this period is beset by a troublesome unevenness - perhaps inevitable, given Kenton's desire not only to do new things in jazz but to do several at once. A piece like Rugolo's "Fugue For Rhythm section" impresses with its daring - indeed, Rugolo was always a musical risk taker - but too often Rugolo's conception of modern music in the mid-1940s boiled down to making jazz sound like a movie score, an ambitious score to be sure but one that seems to be supporting a series of visual images to which we are never privy. His "Elegy For Alto" could well be the background to a hard-boiled mystery movie set in the 1940s. As such, it would be quite successful, but as a jazz piece it falls flat. Rugolo's "Impressionism", recorded a day later on October 22, 1947, is similarly ponderous. However, "Monotony" recorded two days later, defies its name, standing out as one of the most successful Rugolo works of the period, with its expressive cross-rhythms more than compensating for the screaming brass.

(Adding the paragraph which immediately follows that one, just for grins)

Rugolo's ventures into Latin music are perhaps the most striking of his works from this period. The strong performances of "world music" are usually the last thing recalled in accounts of the band's achievements. Nonetheless, this is an area in which the Kenton band consistently excelled. "Cuban Carnival" and "Introduction To A Latin Rhythm" have none of the rarefied flavor of the academy to hamper their exuberance. While not up to the caliber of the Kenton classic Cuban Fire release of some years later, these charts showed that progressive music could boast a heady rhythmic flair and an earthy flavor.

.

As somebody who thinks that as a strict "jazz arranger" Rugolo was, at the end of the day, an extremely high level formulaic device-dependent hack but who when working elsewhere had some good ideas, as somebody who loves "Elegy For Alto" (especially the live version on The Kenton Era, and has somebody who finds Cuban Fire to be damn near unlistenable because it's just too "too much" (of EVERYTHING), I'll say that I don't particularly agree with Mr. Gioia here.

Rugolo or not, though "Machito" is just one HELLUVA great work. That shit works!

DAMN! I Got 15 Horns And I Know How To Use 'Em!!!!

[JSngry]

I also don't like Gioia's mustache, but that's another topic.

Gioia

Gioga

Gioga, FTW.

[Teasing the Korean]

As somebody who thinks that as a strict "jazz arranger" Rugolo was, at the end of the day, an extremely high level formulaic device-dependent hack but who when working elsewhere had some good ideas, as somebody who loves "Elegy For Alto" (especially the live version on The Kenton Era, and has somebody who finds Cuban Fire to be damn near unlistenable because it's just too "too much" (of EVERYTHING), I'll say that I don't particularly agree with Mr. Gioia here.

If I follow the syntax of your sentence, I don't agree that Rugolo was "an extremely high level formulaic device-dependent hack but who when working elsewhere had some good ideas." And I guess you realize that Cuban Fire was Johnny Richards, not Rugolo. If you trim the pompous intros and codas from those arrangements, you do get a nice selection of 6 or 7 tunes, but the whole thing runs about 20 minutes without the pompous parts.

[JSngry]

Have always never confused Rugolo with Richards, nor thought of anybody else for Cuban Fire, bet on that. I just have a hard time handling most of Richards' work, period (consistent exception being Adventures In Time). But I don't ever really hear "formula".

Rugolo, though...I bought the 40s Kenton Capitoal Mosaic a few years ago as part of my desire (successful, I think) to "make my peace" with about Stan Kenton, and...I'm just not at all convinced that Rugolo's charts from for that first Kenton band weren't a whole lot of copy and paste of a few equations onto a lot of different songs. Enthusiastic and sincerely motivated, I'm sure, but just...transparently devicical (built for 18). But on the part of the set that hit the "Progressive Jazz" band, that was when my ears perked up. It was like all those cool parts on "Machito"...suddenly all that cool shit had some room to walk its own walk.

[JSngry]

A detailed account of what it was like at a good many independent jazz labels of the '50s (or within jazz enclaves at major labels of the time) is a book I'd snap up. Things must have been particularly off the wall at Liberty under or around Harry Babasin (this after Babasin’s Nocturne label days with drummer Roy Harte), witness “Jazz Mad, featuring The Unpredictable Steve White”:

Have you read Arnold Shaw's Honkers And Shouters? That's exactly the kind of book you're looking for, or would be if you'd want it to be about the early days of R&B...a lot of stories about the Bihari brothers, though, and if Crown don't fit into the Southern Western Coast Of California Jazz Overview, then...I'll send that over to Chewy for arbitration!

Liberty, yes, nuts. I found that Steve White thing in an East Texas "bargain barn" back in the 1980s...how it got there is probably more interesting than the record itself, although not the cover, which is still UBER-messed up. Stayed away from White's Nocturne sides for years because the Liberty side left me kind of...dis-motivated. My bad.

I trust that you've heard the Julie London NSFW outtake tape?

Liberty!

[Big Beat Steve]

Talking about Nocturne:

http://jazztimes.com/articles/9065-the-complete-noctourne-recordings-jazz-in-hollywood-series-volume-1-herbie-harper-with-bud-shank-harry-babasin-bob-enevoldsen-virgil-gonsalves-lou-levy-and-jimmy-rowles

Jim Sangrey's comments on Steve White had made me curious. Must get a copy of that Nocturne Steve White LP not included in the FS box set (and was unaware of the Fantasy reissue until now), but in fact his Liberty LP was one of the few from the Liberty "Jazz In Hollywood" series I had never been tempted to get (with the best - or worst? - will in the world I just cannot get into most of those "hey I can sing too" jazz musicians' vocalizing from that period). Steve White's Nocturne LP must indeed have sunk pretty fast at the time because DB's review of his Liberty LP starts with calling that Liberty LP his "debut LP" (and goes on to call his vocalizing "extremely ill-advised for just about every reason in the book" ).

I have most of the others from that Liberty series and "Sam Songs" is a favorite from this series here, BTW.

And, before maybe getting back to a few other statements made here last night, may I add this quote from the above review to maybe tip the scales in the "arranged" bit about WCJ some more?

It is conventional wisdom in some circles that West Coast jazz was over-arranged and anemic. You would not think so from hearing these records. For the most part, they have much in common with the Prestige (East Coast) modus operandi of the time: Show up, agree on some tunes and blow. Exceptions are the tight ensemble writing of Paich and John Graas for one of trombonist Harper's quintet dates, the compact charts of Virgil Gonsalves' sextet, and Rogers' quintet writing for the Bud Shank date. Still, ensembles are one thing; improvisation is another. These dates had some of the most unrestrained playing of the period.

And certainly Nocturne is all-out WCJ all the way by every yardstick too, right?

One of those cases, I'd say, where it is for historians or discographers to bring this aspect back to light just to complete the picture that may have been incomplete at the time (not wanting to fault anybody for anything, but asking those of you forumists who have lwitnessed that period first hand - how many of you were keenly aware of the Nocturne releases back then?)

[Larry Kart]

A detailed account of what it was like at a good many independent jazz labels of the '50s (or within jazz enclaves at major labels of the time) is a book I'd snap up. Things must have been particularly off the wall at Liberty under or around Harry Babasin (this after Babasin’s Nocturne label days with drummer Roy Harte), witness “Jazz Mad, featuring The Unpredictable Steve White”:

Have you read Arnold Shaw's Honkers And Shouters? That's exactly the kind of book you're looking for, or would be if you'd want it to be about the early days of R&B...a lot of stories about the Bihari brothers, though, and if Crown don't fit into the Southern Western Coast Of California Jazz Overview, then...I'll send that over to Chewy for arbitration!

Liberty, yes, nuts. I found that Steve White thing in an East Texas "bargain barn" back in the 1980s...how it got there is probably more interesting than the record itself, although not the cover, which is still UBER-messed up. Stayed away from White's Nocturne sides for years because the Liberty side left me kind of...dis-motivated. My bad.

I trust that you've heard the Julie London NSFW outtake tape?

Liberty!

I have a soft spot for Johnny Richards, his crazy Bethlehem album in particular, also the best tracks on "Wide Range" (Capitol) -- especially the noble melody of "Cimmaron" and the subsequent hellacious Gene Quill solo. What I think people miss with Richards is his surreal sense of humor, which runs all through that Bethlehem album. e.g. "Burrito Burracho"-- his frequent use of piccolo and bass saxophone in particular; those piccolo parts probably bore the annotation "dementado." Interesting to me that the guys in the bands Richards assembled himself played their asses off for him, or so it sounds to me -- as much so perhaps as the members of any ensemble of the time. OTOH, one of Kenton's trumpet section mainstays, don't recall the guy's name, spoke disparagingly of Richard's writing, saying that the brass parts often were unnecessarily awkward and difficult.

Did look at the Shaw book once -- a little too Arnold Shaw for me, IIRC, but I'm a tough crowd.

Steve White's latter day offshoot probably is Ernie Krivada -- the former of Armenian descent, while the latter's background is Hungarian IIRC. In any case, there's a similar somewhat ethnic "gargle" in their playing, plus a sense that the whole thing may go off the rails in the next moment.

Yes, I've heard and love the J. London tape. Nice story about her and her then husband Jack Webb, told by Milt Bernhart. Milt was then a member of the Goodman band, which was working a movie theater stage show with Webb in the early heyday of "Dragnet," then still a radio show, I believe, but a hit. Webb invited the whole band to come up his Manhattan apartment for a big party, during which he put on stack of Eddie Condon 78s. Julie walked over to the record player, removed the disc that was playing and substituted "Shaw 'Nuff." Bernhart turned to a bandmate and said, "This marriage ain't gonna last!" Fortunately for Bobby Troup, and no doubt for London, it didn't.

[JSngry]

OTOH, one of Kenton's trumpet section mainstays, don't recall the guy's name, spoke disparagingly of Richard's writing, saying that the brass parts often were unnecessarily awkward and difficult.

Buddy Childers, perhaps?

Now there's an unsung hero, right there, a guy who could and did play lead in any band...and considering that he played Toshiko's charts, which were no picnic, whatever he says about anybody's parts, pro or con, I'd not argue!

[Larry Kart]

Richards in excelsis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D93UFJJZ2oU&spfreload=10

The exuberant trombone chase features in order Jimmy Cleveland, Jim Dahl, and Frank Rehak.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHspf3Xq-p8&spfreload=10

Soloists are Charlie Mariano, Stu Williamson (valve trb.) Shorty Rogers, Maynard Ferguson, Richie Kamuca.

[Larry Kart]

OTOH, one of Kenton's trumpet section mainstays, don't recall the guy's name, spoke disparagingly of Richard's writing, saying that the brass parts often were unnecessarily awkward and difficult.

Buddy Childers, perhaps?

Now there's an unsung hero, right there, a guy who could and did play lead in any band...and considering that he played Toshiko's charts, which were no picnic, whatever he says about anybody's parts, pro or con, I'd not argue!

It was Phil Gilbert, quoted on p. 150 of Michael Sparke’s “This Is An Orchestra!”:

“Richards was a highly educated musician with great orchestrating skills, but he was also very disturbed and drank heavily. ‘Cuban Fire’ was his best, and he wrote some nice ballads … with no explosions or head-on collisions. We did not enjoy his ‘Back to Balboa’ charts at all. I hated them. Too hard and to what end?”

Jim Amlotte, on the same page, has a different take:

“Johnny Richards is one of my favorite composers, but his music taxed you to the end. To Johnny, nothing was unplayable, and his music was … very, very challenging. Richards put his arrangements together so well. Some guys will say that there’s too much tension, but this is what I like. Some things are going to swing, and some things aren’t, but as long as there’s a pulsation, that’s enough for me. They don’t all have to be Basie-type swing.”

[JSngry]

Can't say that I know Phil Gilbert...but I do like Amlotte's notions, even if I don't care for Richards' writing.

What I do find "interesting", though, is how this notion of "don't all have to be Basie-type swing" keeps coming up in the Kenton Conversation, like, that's their ongoing reference point for "swing"...bebop swing, hardbop swing, Elvin swing...it's always "Basie swing", and although in the early-mid 50s, that made sense, sort of...I just don't know.

And really, don't care. That was a world all to its own, and so be it. They had their own thing, and more power to them for so doing.

But this Buddy Childers guy...there's a story there...

[JSngry]

Oh, Julie London, I LMFAO-ed a little while back, Was doing the Netflix series-watch thing with Emergency, and of course got into doing a little web research about the show, cast, etc, and found this thing where the guy who played either Gage or DeSoto said something like, yeah, Julie London took us all under her wing, we were green and she had all this experience, and she always told it to us straight, she's a BROAD, ya' know?

hellyeah!

[Larry Kart]

Also contra-Richards is Don Reed:

“I think he was Stan’s favorite arranger, but those scores were so demanding physically on the band because the trumpets were constantly screeching. Everybody was playing loud all the time, long sustained notes that blared, and the arrangements didn’t swing.”

The reason "Basie-type swing" keeps coming up, I think, is just because that was the common reference point for big bands in the 1950s -- both the swing of the late '30s Basie band and the different swing of the New Testament Basie band. Further, of course, there was, just within Kenton circles, the recent tussle over the more swinging, arguably "Basie-like" feel of Bill Holman's charts and the "Contemporary Concepts" album, which Kenton didn't care for. Also, there was the neo-Basie feel of virtually every big band album that came out of the NY studios at the time, plus, on the West Coast, things like Shorty Rogers' "Shorty Courts the Count."

​The other kinds of swing you mention weren't on these guys' radar screens, either because there weren't that many recorded examples of bebop swing in a big band setting (Blakey with Eckstine, Joe Harris with Gillespie?), while big bands with hardbop swing or Elvin swing were still a ways in the future.