Rollins and Cherry

[papsrus]

There are several -- Copenhagen, Paris, Stuttgart, Stockholm. Do any stand out above the others?

[JSngry]

They are all outstanding. Get all of them + Our Man In Jazz & you'll be in for a treat, if a (mostly) lo-fi one...

[papsrus]

I was afraid of that. ... I guess I'll start in Paris and work my way north. (I think Napoleon may have uttered these very same words!)

[John L]

Paris is a good place to start - a fine concert, and in the best sound quality of all of them (excepting Our Man in Jazz, of course).

[papsrus]

Ordered "Our Man In Jazz," "Complete Paris 1963" and "New York 1962, Stockholm 1963"

Thanks.

[brownie]

I have a special fondness for the Paris concert because I attended it... but all those Rollins-Cherry concerts are worth getting!

Don't ignore the Stuttgart concert!

Too bad Rollins has not found a partner that could really match his invention since the departure of Don Cherry!

[John L]

Inspired by this thread, I spent part of the day revisiting these concerts. I actually came away feeling that the Paris Concert, although in great sound, is a bit less exciting than the others. Copenhagen may be the pinnacle, although the sound is probably the worst. Stuttgart is indeed fantastic, and in better sound than Copenhagen. I also like that second disc that you ordered (New York 62 / Stockholm 63) quite a bit. It is a new release that fills discographical holes around the bigger concerts, but some of those holes are very strong.

[felser]

Too bad Rollins has not found a partner that could really match his invention since the departure of Don Cherry!

Seems like he intentionally hasn't tried to, for whatever reason. Clifton Anderson, Mark Soskin, and Bobby Broom aren't it, obviously.

[papsrus]

Inspired by this thread, I spent part of the day revisiting these concerts. I actually came away feeling that the Paris Concert, although in great sound, is a bit less exciting than the others. Copenhagen may be the pinnacle, although the sound is probably the worst. Stuttgart is indeed fantastic, and in better sound than Copenhagen. I also like that second disc that you ordered (New York 62 / Stockholm 63) quite a bit. It is a new release that fills discographical holes around the bigger concerts, but some of those holes are very strong.

Thanks John. It was eventually going to come to this anyways, so I went ahead and ordered the Copenhagen and Stuttgart as well.

To be honest, this was (yet another) complete blind spot for me. Had no idea until recently that these recordings existed. Eager to listen to them now.

[bluesbro]

Another vote for Paris. I got the Gambit release and it blew my mind. Awesome sound quality! That version of Everything Happens to Me just kills me.

[JSngry]

Of course, the fallout from this band extends out into Sonny's 60s shows, so don't stop w/the Rollins/Cherry band, that would be deprivational for no good reason

Edited December 29, 2009 by JSngry

[brownie]

Thanks John. It was eventually going to come to this anyways, so I went ahead and ordered the Copenhagen and Stuttgart as well.

Just be advised that the sound on the Copenhagen double CD is not very good.

Most of disc 2 comes from the 1966 concert in Graz, Austria, with Jymie Merritt on bass and Max Roach on drums. Sound from that concert is even worse and the music is off pitch making Rollins's tenor sound like an alto!

[fomafomic65]

Too bad Rollins has not found a partner that could really match his invention since the departure of Don Cherry!

Seems like he intentionally hasn't tried to, for whatever reason. Clifton Anderson, Mark Soskin, and Bobby Broom aren't it, obviously.

True. To me this is always been a pity. In the years his awesome abilities inside a jazz ensemble seem to have gone, leaving an aureferential, solipsistic Saxophone Colossus.

Always a giant (The Giant) but his musical developement completely stopped there in the '70s.

I have seen him live twice 'recently'. Both times after the first hour of great soloing I really felt some well worth partner lacking.

[papsrus]

The whole bundle arrived today. Listening to "Our Man In Jazz" now. I haven't a whole lot by Rollins as reference (VV trio stuff, Freedom Suite, with Monk, Sonny Rollins Volume 2 and Plus Four is about it) but it's wonderful to listen to him in this free-wheeling setting. It'll take a little bit to digest all these, but I'm liking what I'm hearing.

[Mark Stryker]

Folks -- what is the best, pitch-corrected source for the Copenhagen material from Jan. 1963? The two-CD set I picked up recently, "The Complete 1963 Copenhagen Concert," sounds slow (flat). (I'd take LP recommendations as well as CD.)

[Gheorghe]

I remember the Stuttgart Concert was the first I got. It was on an obscure (maybe Italian label) in the 70´s. Since it was the time when I just had "discovered" the music of Ornette Coleman and Don Cherry, I really loved that Rollins-Cherry collaboration.

I remember, the same label had another LP "Max Roach-Sonny Rollins" from Graz (misdated as 1963 but correctly 1966). Too bad I didn´t purchase it, only heard it once. Sonny Rollins used Max and Jimie Merrit from the Max Roach group and if I remember well, they played "Love walked in" and "Poinciana". I remember it sounded great.

I also remember the one extended Max Roach tune (the group was Freddie Hubbard, James Spaulding, Harold Mabern, Meritt and Max). I also remember how Freddie Hubbard stopped at one moment during his solo feature, saying something "nice" to the audience (jive a..... mutha.....)...

[Leeway]

(I posted this on the What Are You Listening To thread, then decided I should post it here. I felt that a dissenting view has a place in the discussion).

Inspired by the Rollins-Cherry thread elsewhere on the Board, decided to give this another listen. I found it more adventurous than most of Rollins work at the time, but it strikes me that Rollins was not very comfortable in the idiom. He always seems to be looking for spots to break into one of his beloved show tunes, and quite a bit of the time he is involved in ornamentation, not free playing. Cherry and Rollins are in the same room, but I'm not sure they are always on the same page. Not much synergy there, but then again, there is not much synergy either on the Coltrane-Cherry album. Rollins tenor always sounds great, but to me Sonny's unease suggests the groundwork for his later, more conventional work.

[soulpope]

I remember the Stuttgart Concert was the first I got. It was on an obscure (maybe Italian label) in the 70´s. Since it was the time when I just had "discovered" the music of Ornette Coleman and Don Cherry, I really loved that Rollins-Cherry collaboration.

I remember, the same label had another LP "Max Roach-Sonny Rollins" from Graz (misdated as 1963 but correctly 1966). Too bad I didn´t purchase it, only heard it once. Sonny Rollins used Max and Jimie Merrit from the Max Roach group and if I remember well, they played "Love walked in" and "Poinciana". I remember it sounded great.

I also remember the one extended Max Roach tune (the group was Freddie Hubbard, James Spaulding, Harold Mabern, Meritt and Max). I also remember how Freddie Hubbard stopped at one moment during his solo feature, saying something "nice" to the audience (jive a..... mutha.....)...

Despite some limitations soundwise the 1966 Trio performance Rollins - Meritt - Roach is outstanding, extra worth to mention being Meritt`s bass playing...............

Edited May 2, 2014 by soulpope

[JSngry]

That Graz thing needs some serious pitch correction on the trio tracks. Sonny sounds like he's on alto!

[Mark Stryker]

There are three tunes from Graz with Rollins, Merritt, Roach -- "Lover," "Poinciana" and "Love Walked In." The issue is pitch -- some versions I've heard run so fast that Sonny sounds like he's playing alto. It's laughable. These issues show up on the Graz material issued on the Copenhagen CDs I reference above, though I've actually heard worse. And, as I said, the Copenhagen material runs slow.

I disagree with Leeway above to the extent that "not comfortable in the idiom" is projecting onto the music a conception of Ornette-like free playing that Sonny wasn't necessarily interested in pursuing. He was looking for a more open way of approaching harmony and form in this repertoire and using melodic (thematic) variation (what I think Leeway dismisses as 'ornamentation') as a way of organizing his improvisations in this environment. I'm certainly not saying the music is not without tension over the means and ends or that it's always successful -- though it frequently is extraordinary. But the discomfort Sonny sometimes suggests to me is more a reflection of an inability to reconcile all of the ideas he was juggling than simply a failure at playing free. Having said that I do agree that his experience with this quartet laid the groundwork for the more conventional settings and sidemen that he would pursue in the mid and late '60s. Still, the absolute authority of that later work it must be said has never been equaled, whether you're talking about the title track from "Alfie," where you can still hear the echoes of some of the ideas Sonny was dealing with in the Cherry quartet, to the various live versions of "Four," "Three Little Words," "To a Wild Rose," "Sonnymoon for Two," etc. that make a lot of other very find jazz musicians sound like children.

Coda: what do folks think of the material with Paul Bley?

Edited May 3, 2014 by Mark Stryker

[soulpope]

There are three tunes from Graz with Rollins, Merritt, Roach -- "Lover," "Poinciana" and "Love Walked In." The issue is pitch -- some versions I've heard run so fast that Sonny sounds like he's playing alto. It's laughable. These issues show up on the Graz material issued on the Copenhagen CDs I reference above, though I've actually heard worse. And, as I said, the Copenhagen material runs slow.

the version offered years ago via board member Ubu`s blog didn`t feature said limitationes to such extent (at least to my ears.......)

btw the blog featured also an aprox 20 minutes version of "There Will Never Be Another You" recorded two days earlier to the Graz Concert on November 10th, 1966 @Konserthuset Stockholm

Edited May 3, 2014 by soulpope

[MartyJazz]

(snip)

Coda: what do folks think of the material with Paul Bley?

I enjoy Rollins' work with Bley, particularly the private recording of the group at the Newport Jazz Festival in which after the opening piece, Berlin's "Remember", the group is joined by Coleman Hawkins and terrific lengthy versions of "All the Things You Are" and "The Way You Look Tonight" are performed. Far superior to the RCA studio album of the two tenor masters cut a couple of weeks later, although "Just Friends" and "At McKie's" are quite good. I don't think Bley's unusual comping is Hawk's preference, but Sonny is enthused in this context.

[paul secor]

(I posted this on the What Are You Listening To thread, then decided I should post it here. I felt that a dissenting view has a place in the discussion).

Inspired by the Rollins-Cherry thread elsewhere on the Board, decided to give this another listen. I found it more adventurous than most of Rollins work at the time, but it strikes me that Rollins was not very comfortable in the idiom. He always seems to be looking for spots to break into one of his beloved show tunes, and quite a bit of the time he is involved in ornamentation, not free playing. Cherry and Rollins are in the same room, but I'm not sure they are always on the same page. Not much synergy there, but then again, there is not much synergy either on the Coltrane-Cherry album. Rollins tenor always sounds great, but to me Sonny's unease suggests the groundwork for his later, more conventional work.

I think that your take on Our Man in Jazz is similar to some of the feelings about the record when it was released, especially by the "music is logic" critics. I've always enjoyed the record - it was one of the first jazz records I bought and it took me a few listens to begin to hear some of what was going on - and I enjoy it now more than I did then. To my ears, Sonny sounds comfortable with what he's playing, and the group sounds like they're listening to each other, even though they're coming from different places. Sonny was exploring when the record was made and, even though he left the musicians (except for Bob Cranshaw) and general freedom of the Cherry group behind, I hear some of the exploration carried over into the RCA recordings that followed this one.

As an aside, when I was going to school in Buffalo in 1964, Sonny Rollins appeared at a local club with a group that included Grant Green. Unfortunately, I missed that gig and I've wondered since what the group sounded like.

Edited May 4, 2014 by paul secor

[JSngry]

The Internet wants you to know that the full unedited Village Gate recordings do exist. Our Man In Jazz did not have to be the record that RCA said ok, let's put it out like this, let's put it that way.

As for Our Man In Jazz, other than Doxy, it's my least favorite of the known recordings of the Rollins/Cherry band. The arrangements are a little too clever for my tastes, and what that band did best was set up the tune and then stretch it whatever way they felt lie stretching it. The Euro-tour recordings capture some really excellent examples of that in shitty sound, but oh well, ain't no living in a perfect world, ok? RCA seemed to want the emphasis on the "cleverness" and edited/released accordingly, that's my theory. Give them something OBVIOUSLY "different" but make it something EASILY FOLLOWED, yeah, that's how you recoup that mammothass advance, yeah, that's how you do it.

As far as post-Cherryband Rollins goes..."conventional"? Seriously? That's some of the most elastic tone and time ever displayed in any music, period. Never mind the setting(s), and there's a pattern that began long before the allegedly dreaded "post-Comeback" Syndrome. Once Tenor Land woke up from its Trane-induced tunnel vision it was like, oh, wow, the instrument can do THIS TOO? Oh shit, WHO KNEW? Well, uh...welcome to THIS party now.

Bley - and Herbie(!) two guys with the ears and sensitivity to follow and contribute in real time rather than just lay out the landscape over which the Flying Trapeze Man defies...everything.

Now - a voucher good for 100 fake bitcoins to anybod y who can name every album in the RCA Our Man In... series.

[Mark Stryker]

To be clear, I agree with Jim on everything here -- my use of the word conventional should have come with quotes -- "conventional" -- because what we're talking about is surface conventionality compared to the surface "free" of the Cherry band. But this is Sonny (jazz) at his/its best. Words like "convention," "free", "avant-garde" and the like are irrelevant. What's relevant is Sonny Rollins with a good trio. Don't get no better than that. Ever.