The Way of Jazz

[Jazz]

I almost posted this in the musician's forum, but I think everybody probably has an opinion on this.

I got to thinking why I never got very good on my gih-tar when I ran across this:

Originally posted by Miyamoto Musashi

If we look at the world we see arts for sale. Men use equipment to sell their own selves. As if with the nut and the flower, the nut has become less than the flower. In this kind of Way of strategy, both those teaching and those learning the way are concerned with colouring and showing off their technique, trying to hasten the bloom of the flower.

I think this directly applies to many of the music students I met while studying, including myself. Anyways, I thought I'd post it here and see what you guys think.

[Joe G]

Who is this Miyamoto cat?

That is a very involved subject, and one that I am continually thinking about. What this boils down to, I think, is intention. And you have to realize, that in life, you get back what you give. Ellis Marsalis once told a young Wynton that, "Those who play for applause, well, that's all they'll get." One soon feels the emptiness in such praise, and then there's a hunger for what lies beyond that. It runs counter to our culture, where so many are eager to sell themselves to the highest bidder on the garbage market.

Here's a passage about intention from The Listening Book:

Next time you hear music (maybe your own), tune in on the intention of the musician. What does this musician really want? To make you dance? To get paid? To sell money market certificates? To fill you with nostalia? Longing? Light? Love? To glorify violence? To show off? To get famous? To get laid?... The answer is audible to anyone listening.

Your intention is part of your music and never leaves it. It came from somewhere and goes somewhere. It is connected directly to your listeners and indirectly to everyone else. When the song is over, your intention keeps on going. Your inner work thus becomes inexorably mixed with the work of the world.

Your real work has inner light in it. When you know this light, public performance becomes luminous and joyous. Your music makes the little house where you live light up among the others. Your arc is a lighted life among lives. When your light shines back on you in a recognizable form ("I loved your concert") it has not gone far enough. Be patient. When it no longer has your name on it, you know that it has made its way safely into the nether regions of the Great Circle.

There's no easy answers about it, just a lot of hard work and soul searching. I hope we hear from some others on this; I need as much help as anyone!

[Jazz]

Wow Joe, great quote! The Law of Conservation of Intention! I dig that.

Musashi was a 16th century Samurai devoted to the Way of the Warrior. But his work was devoted not only to the Way of the Warrior, but also THE Way through which knowledge of ALL ways is acquired. The art he is talking about is the Art of Bushido (Way of the Warrior), but I find that this quote, as most of his writing, applies to all Ways. I mean, there are so many things he said that I could apply to being a Jazz musician as easily as a businessman or a warrior.

There's no easy answers about it, just a lot of hard work and soul searching.

Thank you thank you thank you for not leaving out the hard work part. Alot of people I knew just wanted to feel it out without bothering to train or learn things. Cause you know, learning things is dumb.

As far as I understand Musashi, training is critical in everything. Training until what you're training becomes second nature to you, but without losing sight of the true goal of what you're training for! Yeah, that sentence didn't make any sense. So sue me!

[Jazz]

I'm not quite ready to let this one die because I think this is important, although if no one wants to reply after this post then so be it.

I'll make some specific questions, and then give personal examples and any thoughts, even if extremely tangential would be greatly appreciated.

Does anyone find that the general premise of Musashi's observation is true? That many people try to "Hasten the bloom of the flower" and make the nut "become less than the flower"? Is that a bad thing if it's true?

What would the "nut" be in contrast to the "flower" in the specific context of Jazz music? Are there actual overall approaches to training that in themselves could be considered the nut or the flower, or for that matter, trying to hasten the bloom of the flower? Or does it have more to do with intent, the way Joe G says?

When I was studying Jazz, I knew I wanted to be great. The best. The best Jazz guitarist ever. But now that I look back, I don't think I ever thought about what that really meant. I never asked myself what I was trying to accomplish by being the best. Was I trying to communicate emotions? Was I trying to make pretty music? Make people happy? Was I trying to change the world? Change myself? I was pretty much only concerned with "sounding good". I only focused on technique and I think that is the reason why I failed. I wanted the beautiful colors of the flower without worrying where it was coming from. That, in my opinion, is an example of trying to hasten the bloom of the flower.

[Rooster_Ties]

I'm not a 'musician', just a 'musical performer' (I'm not a creative musician, but rather more like a guy in a pit orchestra, so to speak*) -- so I'm not entirely sure I can personally relate to this topic as deeply as I might like to.

But in speaking with other musicians (and I do mean 'musicians'), I've come to understand that deliberately trying to learn things that are perhaps counter to one's natural tendencies, is one key to opening up new pathways to real creativity, and (I would think) moving towards a more personal technique.

I remember talking with Jason Moran once a couple years ago, and he mentioned (without going into great specifics – I forget how this topic came up) about how he was doing exercises that he hoped would train himself to not think about his left-hand work in such traditional, functional ways. In some sense, he felt he had to 'unlearn' several years of prior training, that he felt had begun condition the way he approached his instrument - presumably on some unconscious level.

I'm sure this is true of almost any instrument, where there are accepted 'schools' of thought on how one approaches playing and improvising. Electric guitar, either blues or rock (or country) -- or almost any jazz instrument and 'jazzful' approach. (Man, I cannot bear the thought of actually using the word 'jazzy'. )

Sorry for the feeble attempt to put all this into words. I'm operating at some academic 'theoretical' level about a topic like this, as what I do on this board is about the most "creative" thing I ever seem to do of late.

*I sing in a chorus. It's a pretty good chorus, in that it's the choral arm of a symphony orchestra -- but my role is really just like that of some random violinist back in one of the back rows of the 2nd violin section.

[Joe G]

Well, to be honest, I don't fully understand the passage in Jazz's original post. Taken separetely, the statements seem to make good sense, but together, they don't seem to really connect. Either that, or I just don't get the nut/flower thing. ...the nut has become less than the flower. I take it that's a bad thing? Well, you can actually eat a nut and get some sustinance from it, but a flower, while pretty to look at (showing off), doesn't feed you. That's one possible interpretation. But then later, we are warned against "trying to hasten the bloom of the flower.". So now the flower is, what, that which is the true purpose of one's training, the unforced action, the fullness of mature expression? I certainly see a lot of truth in that statement; we all want to rush to the conclusion. As consumers, we want people who are good now, not 10 years from now. That's a slightly different problem than being unclear about one's intention (although they are certainly connected), which is what I feel most of this passage is about, as well as the final paragraph of your second post, Jazz.

[Jim Alfredson]

I think what he's trying to say is that sometimes you feel like a nut...

[Joe G]

How did I know that was going to be a wise guy response from you?

[Jazz]

Posted by Joe

Well, to be honest, I don't fully understand the passage in Jazz's original post. Taken separetely, the statements seem to make good sense, but together, they don't seem to really connect. Either that, or I just don't get the nut/flower thing. ...the nut has become less than the flower. I take it that's a bad thing? Well, you can actually eat a nut and get some sustinance from it, but a flower, while pretty to look at (showing off), doesn't feed you. That's one possible interpretation. But then later, we are warned against "trying to hasten the bloom of the flower.". So now the flower is, what, that which is the true purpose of one's training, the unforced action, the fullness of mature expression? I certainly see a lot of truth in that statement; we all want to rush to the conclusion. As consumers, we want people who are good now, not 10 years from now. That's a slightly different problem than being unclear about one's intention (although they are certainly connected), which is what I feel most of this passage is about, as well as the final paragraph of your second post, Jazz.

You know what? I can't believe you didn't understand! I'm just kidding. Your post is the best post I've ever seen on the internet. Period. You've nailed things that I've been trying to figure out for a long, long time. Thank you.

It's actually my fault this post is hard to understand: I've been mulling over Musashi's words for so long now that I didn't realize that one quote by itself and out of context was confusing. Also, even though I've been pondering these things for so long, I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND THEM. It's driving me absolutely nuts. Pun intended. I understand the general concepts, but application is always the hard part.

I'll try and explain what Musashi is saying with the whole nut less than flower thing, but I'm certain I can't say it as well as he (or you, because in the course of your post, you actually explain it quite well!). What he is saying is that "artists" are placing value of the end result over the cultivation of that result. In reality, you can't place more value on either of those things, because they are really the same thing at their core. It's like placing more value on the edible part of a piece of fruit than the seed because it tastes better. But without the seed there would be no fruit! That's probably a stupid analogy, but it's all I could come up with.

I still think you said it better:

So now the flower is, what, that which is the true purpose of one's training, the unforced action, the fullness of mature expression? I certainly see a lot of truth in that statement; we all want to rush to the conclusion.

You totally nailed it. "the true purpose of one's training". "The fullness of mature expression". "unforced action" being especially important. Making the nut less than the flower is wanting "to rush to the conclusion". Or in other words, making the nut less important will lead to the action of trying to force the "bloom".

That's a slightly different problem than being unclear about one's intention

Yes and no, and I actually think this is at the heart of what Musashi is saying. I honestly don't think I'm reading into it too much either. Think about it. If your intention is to be the best, "trying to hasten the bloom of the flower" is absolutely the wrong approach. So, if you are telling yourself that you are searching for greatness but you are rushing and forcing things then your intentions are not what you think they are.

Posted by Rooster Ties

Sorry for the feeble attempt to put all this into words.

Certainly not! The idea of not settling inside a comfort zone or resting on your laurels is as important a concept to this issue as any! I totally agree with what you posted. If musicians are not willing to try and find unfamiliar ways to express themselves then music will die.

Whew! What a wordy post. I know that means I don't fully understand it yet, because understanding something means being able to say it simply. But, I definitely feel I've moved forward a bit. Any comments or challenges to any of my assertions would be MOST welcome. Thank you again!

Jazz

P.S. - Joe, I thought what you said:

Well, you can actually eat a nut and get some sustinance from it, but a flower, while pretty to look at (showing off), doesn't feed you.

was especially brilliant, because you are now looking at it from the other side. The side of a student or listener. If the musician or teacher is all flower and no nut, so to speak, you will be dazzled but you will not be nourished or improved.

[Jazzmoose]

Here's what I got out of the quote, and if I'm completely missing the boat, just shake your head sadly and whisper among yourselves...

I'm reminded of my youth, when the one thing I wanted to be above all else was a comic book artist. I loved to draw comics, and was drawing constantly. However, I never made it, and frankly, I was an awful artist. Why? Because I was more concerned with learning to draw comics than with simply learning to draw. I learned all the little tricks that comic artists use, and could really put out some impressive stuff, but ultimately, there was something at the core lacking, because although I learned all the showy, flashy stuff, I never really learned the basics of how to draw. I had the technique and the flash, but the core development never took place. I was all wrapped up in the flower, and the nut, which has to come first, never developed.

A flower can be a beautiful thing, but if the nut isn't developed properly, you'll never get the beautiful flower you're hoping for...

Anyway, that's my interpretation.

[Jazz]

Jazzmoose,

That was a great post. Thank you! I really like this sentence:

A flower can be a beautiful thing, but if the nut isn't developed properly, you'll never get the beautiful flower you're hoping for...

which seems to really encapsulate what I was trying to say, and what I think Musashi is saying.

I'm really impressed guys. Thank you for interperations and for putting into words what I could not. It has seriously helped me.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Jazz

[7/4]

I almost posted this in the musician's forum, but I think everybody probably has an opinion on this.

I got to thinking why I never got very good on my gih-tar when I ran across this:

Originally posted by Miyamoto Musashi

If we look at the world we see arts for sale. Men use equipment to sell their own selves. As if with the nut and the flower, the nut has become less than the flower. In this kind of Way of strategy, both those teaching and those learning the way are concerned with colouring and showing off their technique, trying to hasten the bloom of the flower.

I think this directly applies to many of the music students I met while studying, including myself. Anyways, I thought I'd post it here and see what you guys think.

If we look at the world we see arts for sale. Men use equipment to sell their own selves.

I'm gonna guess that most here have not heard my music (thanks to the recent demise of MP3.com). I think Joe G has, he sent me a PM a few weeks ago but never responded to my response (not a problem, despite my posts on this board, I'm a pretty busy guy). I work with microtones and I'm not looking to sell myself through music, my music is also minimal, very slow development.

As if with the nut and the flower, the nut has become less than the flower. In this kind of Way of strategy, both those teaching and those learning the way are concerned with colouring and showing off their technique, trying to hasten the bloom of the flower.

I hardly see listeners astonished by my technique! During a set I feel unconfortible looking at the audience, and when I do, I see people in meditation, people lost in thought, slack jawed drouling stairing off in to the void. I'm all for the result, the way to it (intervals from the naturally occuring harmonic series) is interesting, but not why I do it.

Did I missunderstand the post? 18 hour day here!

[Matthew]

Here's a passage about intention from The Listening Book:

Next time you hear music (maybe your own), tune in on the intention of the musician. What does this musician really want? To make you dance? To get paid? To sell money market certificates? To fill you with nostalia? Longing? Light? Love? To glorify violence? To show off? To get famous? To get laid?... The answer is audible to anyone listening.

Your intention is part of your music and never leaves it. It came from somewhere and goes somewhere. It is connected directly to your listeners and indirectly to everyone else. When the song is over, your intention keeps on going. Your inner work thus becomes inexorably mixed with the work of the world.

Your real work has inner light in it. When you know this light, public performance becomes luminous and joyous. Your music makes the little house where you live light up among the others. Your arc is a lighted life among lives. When your light shines back on you in a recognizable form ("I loved your concert") it has not gone far enough. Be patient. When it no longer has your name on it, you know that it has made its way safely into the nether regions of the Great Circle.

Joe: Could you please give some more details on The Listening BooK you quoted from. Who wrote it? Thanks.

[7/4]

The Listening Book

[Matthew]

Thanks, I loved the quote so much that I have to buy the book.

[Jazz]

7/4 - 18 hour day! Crikey!

I don't know if I am adequate to respond to your questions, but I will try because it is good for me to fumble around this material.

I work with microtones and I'm not looking to sell myself through music, my music is also minimal, very slow development.

According to Musashi, I think, that is a very good thing. I don't think he was saying that anyone who uses "equipment" is immediately selling themselves. He was after all, a samarai and master of several weapons including the long sword, companion sword and bow. He also mentions in an analogy that warriors should sharpen their own weapons - presumably, in modern day, only specialists know how to sharpen a Japanese sword properly. So, he was very familiar and knowledgeable in how to use the equipment of his art. (Actually, that's a whole different subject! But I promise I'll spare you guys THAT discussion.... )

I hardly see listeners astonished by my technique! During a set I feel unconfortible looking at the audience, and when I do, I see people in meditation, people lost in thought, slack jawed drouling stairing off in to the void. I'm all for the result, the way to it (intervals from the naturally occuring harmonic series) is interesting, but not why I do it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Musashi was admonishing those who were seeking only to impress people with their flashy technique, and ignoring the deeper meanings of their Way (Artform). It seems like you are saying that you are definitely not like that. In fact, I think if you were to primarily focus on the minutiae of your music instead of the emotional, artistic, and motivational aspects that that would be more akin to making the nut less than the flower.

Long story short (too late!), a Way is the entirety of an artform that brings about, as Joe said "the unforced fullness of mature expression" within that artform. Ignoring any part of that Way, or making one part more important than another only sabotages the blooming of the Flower.

Gee, did that make any sense? Did I totally miss the point? I apologize in advance!

[Joe G]

I'm gonna guess that most here have not heard my music (thanks to the recent demise of MP3.com). I think Joe G has, he sent me a PM a few weeks ago but never responded to my response (not a problem, despite my posts on this board, I'm a pretty busy guy).

<wince> Sorry dude. I am interested in hearing the music you offered to send me. Any or all of it! :rsmile: I'll email you.

[Joe G]

Thanks, I loved the quote so much that I have to buy the book.

Check out his other books, too.

[7/4]

7/4 - 18 hour day! Crikey!

Yep. That was a long one.

Thanks for the comments...sounds like the music is doing ok, now...if I could live my life like that!

[7/4]

I'm gonna guess that most here have not heard my music (thanks to the recent demise of MP3.com). I think Joe G has, he sent me a PM a few weeks ago but never responded to my response (not a problem, despite my posts on this board, I'm a pretty busy guy).

<wince> Sorry dude. I am interested in hearing the music you offered to send me. Any or all of it! :rsmile: I'll email you.

Not a problem! Good thing I saved the PM as a text file on my desktop so I can remember what I wrote!

[Joe G]

I've still got your reply in my inbox, too.

[Joe G]

Posted by Jazz

I'll try and explain what Musashi is saying with the whole nut less than flower thing, but I'm certain I can't say it as well as he (or you, because in the course of your post, you actually explain it quite well!). What he is saying is that "artists" are placing value of the end result over the cultivation of that result. In reality, you can't place more value on either of those things, because they are really the same thing at their core. It's like placing more value on the edible part of a piece of fruit than the seed because it tastes better. But without the seed there would be no fruit! That's probably a stupid analogy, but it's all I could come up with.

I thought it was a fine analogy. The distinction we make between the terms nut and seed might be leading to some confusion here, as far as the original passage is concerned. They're not quite fully interchangeable, are they? But I've seen some good replies from everyone nevertheless. Especially Mark's.

Re: the ends vs. the means, Krishnamurti used to stress the point that the means are the end. He would usually mention this in the context of political action, stating that violent means could never lead to a peaceful end.

[Matthew]

Thanks, I loved the quote so much that I have to buy the book.

Check out his other books, too.

Thanks for the link, on my way to some book stores this evening.

[Jazz]

The distinction we make between the terms nut and seed might be leading to some confusion here, as far as the original passage is concerned. They're not quite fully interchangeable, are they?

D'oh! Now I see what you're getting at. Sorry, I'm a little slow. I guess with the way my brain works I inferred from the context that what was actually meant was seed instead of "nut". What I'll do is look at another translation when I go to the bookstore today. If it says "nut" I guess that changes what he's saying a tiny bit doesn't it? I think, though, it would basically mean the same thing.

Re: the ends vs. the means, Krishnamurti used to stress the point that the means are the end. He would usually mention this in the context of political action, stating that violent means could never lead to a peaceful end.

I pretty much agree with the idea that the means are the end, but I'm not sure if that would translate into violent means = violent ends. Can you recommend any Krishnamurti works?

Your Friendly Neighborhood.....Dunce?

[Joe G]

It's been a while since I've read his stuff, but I remember Education and the Significance of Life, Freedom from the Known, and the Commentaries on Living as being quite good.