How To: Keep Up In A Jazz Conversation

[Rooster_Ties]

I thought it was cool to like some singers.

A few, but not many. (re: "quite surprising how the jazz modern crowd hates singers.")

Then who's cool? (Picking up somewhat on Jim's "Just dead ones.") Billie and Bessie, Abbey Lincoln, and Andy Bey come to mind. Bob Dorough perhaps (re: his 'School House Rock' cred). If anybody remembered Lou Rawls (not that anybody remembers Andy Bey), Rawls epitomized the notion of "cool", but I suspect it's probably not especially cool to be into him. A few were cool by their association with others, certainly June Tyson, for instance. Tony Bennett, I guess, but in lots of circles he wouldn't be considered 'cool' -- except perhaps by default, but mostly because of his longevity.

Oh, and there's Esperanza Spalding of course -- who's probably polarizing, with as many thinking she's cool as those who don't. "Cool" is all relative, so I suspect most would consider her to certainly be 'more cool' than Norah Jones (maybe if Norah had a 'fro...), but not as cool as say, anyone in jazz who doesn't sing.

Not that there aren't any good jazz singers -- but I'm having trouble thinking of many that would be widely considered "cool" among modern jazz cognoscenti. (I also looked through this list before posting, to make sure I wasn't forgetting anybody significant.)

All wild speculation on my part, of course.

Am I part of the "modern jazz crowd" myself? All depends on who's asking.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Rooster_Ties

[Van Basten II]

Among the hardcore fans, little do care about them (dead or alive), if I go to a concert starring a singer most of the crowd will be people you don't usually see at jazz events and almost none of the people that usually comes to jazz gigs.

When Geri Allen came to town a few weeks ago, there was some excitement about her visit but when it was learned that she would be playing with Elisabeth Kontomanou, the excitement died down and the crowd showing up was mostly neophytes.

A Esperanza Spalding will be ok because she's an instrumentalist., the other problem is that a lot of singers being showcased as jazz singers, are not really jazz singers (Norah Jones, Melody Gardot)

The amusing thing is that bookers will push for singers to be showcased since they attract a bigger crown than the jazz aficionados who are a small minority which makes them hate the singers more.

[JSngry]

[A Lark Ascending]

I don't know if I'm a hardcore jazz fan (I've certainly paid for the visa given how many recordings obscure my living room walls), I'm certainly not 'cool' (something I always assume you're meant to grow out of by 20) but I do like jazz singers.

Jsngry put an Irene Kral clip up - not someone I'm familiar with but as chance would have it a wonderful version of 'Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most' just got played on the BBC's Jazz Record Requests. Utterly wonderful! Onto the list! Will listen to the clip when JRR ends.

I suspect the problem with singers for some jazz 'hardcore' listeners is that they provide an accessible entry point, one that only occasionally draws the curious further over the threshold. In addition, it's possible to be an approximation of a competent jazz singer with far less musical knowledge than the equivalent instrumentalist would need. Which possibly makes them suspect in some eyes. Which is a pity because, to my ears, there are scores of marvellous jazz singers out there, live and dead.

As for the article, jazz needs regular doses of this tongue-in-cheek ribbing - its 'hardcore' fans can take it all so seriously (as their life?'). Though perhaps the classical music world is even more in need of such send ups!

Edited April 23, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[papsrus]

Is there a jazz singers thread here? That Kral is nice.

Keep 'em coming!

[JSngry]

Jsngry put an Irene Kral clip up - not someone I'm familiar with but as chance would have it a wonderful version of 'Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most' just got played on the BBC's Jazz Record Requests. Utterly wonderful! Onto the list! Will listen to the clip when JRR ends.

Don't know her overall output that well, but the album that cut comes from is just crazymad badass. Talk about phrasing that leaves no room for error and doesn't make any, this is it. There's a waaay uptempo version of "Nobody Else But Me" on there that is just nuts, the lady nails it and leaves no doubt about it. Interestingly enough, the ballads take the same tact - total confidence in pitch and timing, which results in things being done that can take your breath away.

Also interesting for me is the title tune, which for years I had only known through Al Jarreau's version. Come to find out, Kral did the first "profile" version, but the song itself, which has such an uber-"middle class hipster" vibe, to it was written by a member of The Kingston Trio!

Anyway, that's an album I'll freely recommend to anybody, whether they like singers or not. At some point it becomes such a silly quibble to deny fine music just because there's a voice and words involved. Dare I go so far as to say that it's actually stupid?

I guess I do!

[Noj]

I used to not like jazz singers. Or I just ignored them because I was so into the instrumental end of things. Then they grew on me, augmented by the realization that they're often singing over really good instrumentals.

[A Lark Ascending]

Is there a jazz singers thread here? That Kral is nice.

Keep 'em coming!

There must be scores!

Back in the early Noughties when Diana Krall and Norah Jones temporarily made jazz singing part of the mainstream it was a major point of debate.

I used to not like jazz singers. Or I just ignored them because I was so into the instrumental end of things. Then they grew on me, augmented by the realization that they're often singing over really good instrumentals.

I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.

To quote a very wise jazz singer.

[Dan Gould]

As for the article, jazz needs regular doses of this tongue-in-cheek ribbing - its 'hardcore' fans can take it all so seriously (as their life?').

What could possibly make you think this is some sort of tongue-in-cheek ribbing? Its part of an ongoing series entitled "How To" and its pretty obvious to me that its a serious effort to inform the non-jazz fan how to do exactly what the title says.

I agree its a joke - because the writer doesn't know a damn thing about the music he is writing about.

And if that makes me a "hardcore fan (who takes) it all so seriously" then so be it. Its a ridiculously stupid and ill-informed serious article.

[A Lark Ascending]

Reads to me like a gentle lampoon.

Always a good thing in 'the arts'.

[Dan Gould]

The teacher has to be reminded to look at the context:

:rolleyes:

• 
  
  
• Published by a website called "Ask Men"
  
• A survey question, "This article makes me ..." with 50% of respondents choosing "A Better Man"
  
  
• The rest of the "How To" columns here
  

You really think this is "a gentle lampoon"?

You're even loonier than the asshat who wrote it.

[Ken Dryden]

Among the hardcore fans, little do care about them (dead or alive), if I go to a concert starring a singer most of the crowd will be people you don't usually see at jazz events and almost none of the people that usually comes to jazz gigs.

When Geri Allen came to town a few weeks ago, there was some excitement about her visit but when it was learned that she would be playing with Elisabeth Kontomanou, the excitement died down and the crowd showing up was mostly neophytes.

A Esperanza Spalding will be ok because she's an instrumentalist., the other problem is that a lot of singers being showcased as jazz singers, are not really jazz singers (Norah Jones, Melody Gardot)

The amusing thing is that bookers will push for singers to be showcased since they attract a bigger crown than the jazz aficionados who are a small minority which makes them hate the singers more.

I like a lot of singers, but Elisabeth Kontomanou left me rather cold after hearing one CD sent my way. I also pass on singer-songwriters being pushed by labels and publicists as "jazz." Of course, if you shop at Amazon, the jazz classification becomes worthless with the numerous, pop, new age and anything but improvising artists included by them.

[fasstrack]

I thought it was cool to like some singers.

Sorry to use your post to park my megaphone....and thanks

First of all, who cares if it's 'cool' or not? To thine own self, etc. and also Only Trust your Heart.

Speaking as a musician who's played for (read: accompanied) both instrumentalists and singers since the early 1980s or earlier, plus is also a soloist and composer (glad we got my crass plug out of the way )I can say:

When a musician gets to play for, or even listens to a really good singer, there's to me few more satisfying or learning experiences. I think we're all jealous of singers, performing musicians. I even tried singing for a while to get it out of my system, but decided I like people too much to continue

One learns not only what you'd expect: phrasing; spacing; sound quality; dynamics----but also a sense of direct communication every instrumental soloist doesn't have. As an accompanist you have to play in keys horn players don't, pick up a tempo in many subtle ways, deal with personalities from old-school to diva to please-support-me-I'm-insecure. It's a great school. Also everyone is trying to 'sing' on their instrument and talks about their 'voice'----I'll stop there.

One of the highlights of my life as a sideman was a 1994 month-long gig with a singer pianist popular in the '40s named Hadda Brooks. Her ballads took your breath away. She used to do, for example, The Thrill is Gone, away from the piano, rubato, with me strumming and the late Morris Edwards bowing on bass. It gave me major goosebumps every time: the huskiness and emotion in her voice. It was just a special moment.

Since I've worked with other singers and listened to many more the challenge for me as a leader has become to put a song over as a guitarist, bringing out the song without the advantage of singing the lyric. That has become my work and I will continue to model on singers just as players. My two biggest influences on ballads now are Chris Anderson and Nancy Lamott---both masters of romanticism and spacing, among many other things.

As far as singers being liked by audiences: a lot of jazz audiences aren't as knowledgeable as they pretend. There's one place I work in NY that has a Godsend location and people wander in off the street. I've had singers I've invited to sit in on solo gigs there, for variety and to get the glare off me for a while. This one singer friend is good and has a following. She neither hurt nor helped my connecting with the people that night, not a particularly great one for me either.

The bottom line for me is I play for, listen to, and hire singers because I like it. I'm a song and dance man without the dance. It's something I always will do whatever the current vox popular or various idiot wags say.

[Van Basten II]

Among the hardcore fans, little do care about them (dead or alive), if I go to a concert starring a singer most of the crowd will be people you don't usually see at jazz events and almost none of the people that usually comes to jazz gigs.

When Geri Allen came to town a few weeks ago, there was some excitement about her visit but when it was learned that she would be playing with Elisabeth Kontomanou, the excitement died down and the crowd showing up was mostly neophytes.

A Esperanza Spalding will be ok because she's an instrumentalist., the other problem is that a lot of singers being showcased as jazz singers, are not really jazz singers (Norah Jones, Melody Gardot)

The amusing thing is that bookers will push for singers to be showcased since they attract a bigger crown than the jazz aficionados who are a small minority which makes them hate the singers more.

I like a lot of singers, but Elisabeth Kontomanou left me rather cold after hearing one CD sent my way. I also pass on singer-songwriters being pushed by labels and publicists as "jazz." Of course, if you shop at Amazon, the jazz classification becomes worthless with the numerous, pop, new age and anything but improvising artists included by them.

Which records did you listen, some of hers are a bit overproduced, Back to my groove, the one that is a Blue Note record a look alike is probably the one that fits her talents the best

I thought it was cool to like some singers.

First of all, who cares if it's 'cool' or not? To thine own self, etc. and also Only Trust your Heart.

At the end of the day, that's the only thing that matters

Edited April 25, 2011 by Van Basten II

[fasstrack]

I thought it was cool to like some singers.

First of all, who cares if it's 'cool' or not? To thine own self, etc. and also Only Trust your Heart.

At the end of the day, that's the only thing that matters

In the middle of the night, too

[.:.impossible]

So I'm ok then?

[Van Basten II]

So I'm ok then?

As long as you keep it to yourself