Jazz Tenor Taxonomies

[Kelly Bucheger]

(Hi Organissimo! After posting this topic at the Sax On The Web forum, someone there suggested I check out this forum, and that it might be worthy thread fodder here...)

Houston Person is coming to Buffalo at the end of October, and I've been asked to have a pre-concert "conversation" (the gig's at an art gallery, so they do this sort of thing) about where HP fits into the "Boss Tenor" tradition.

Which has gotten me thinking about The Jazz Tenor in general -- it seems to me the tenor *more than any other instrument in jazz* has been codified into distinct "classes": the Chicago school, Texas tenors, Boss tenors, etc., based mainly on similarities in sound and phrasing.

Moreover, categorizing tenors started early in the music's history: not long after Coleman Hawkins "invented" THE jazz tenor approach, ditching slap tonguing and pairing his big sound with aspects of Louis Armstrong's phrasing, Lester Young came along with more melodic lines, and softer tone and phrasing. And once those approaches were recognized, every subsequent tenor player was weighed and measured to see if he was a Hawkins guy or a Young guy.

Meanwhile, emerging from these 2 main branches were the regional schools mentioned above: the Chicago school and the Texas Tenors, along with groups of players who shared certain traits and affinities, like the Boss Tenors. (I seem to remember Dave Liebman, just slightly tongue in cheek, putting himself in the Brooklyn Jews school, with Steve Grossman and Bob Berg, and with Philly-born Michael Brecker as a later "honorary" member...)

Anyways, I'd love to hear from anyone who has any thoughts about this admittedly geeky subject area in jazz history. What other "tenor schools" are out there (like those California guys: Dexter most prominent among them...)? Anyone disagree with my notion that no other jazz instrument has been quite so "codified" as the tenor? What "schools" are out there for other instruments?

Edited September 29, 2011 by Kelly Bucheger

[flat5]

Interesting.

There are piano schools of playing.

To a lesser degree I've heard of drummer schools of playing, and trombone, and trumpet.

Edited September 29, 2011 by flat5

[Guy Berger]

This is an interesting topic! I'm way too lazy, but would be fun to actually write down a set of categories and then list the tenorists you would put in each one.

[BillF]

There was a 1950s LP (on Prestige perhaps) that had on the back a genealogy of tenor influences set out as a diagram. Anyone remember what it was?

[Guy Berger]

There was a 1950s LP (on Prestige perhaps) that had on the back a genealogy of tenor influences set out as a diagram. Anyone remember what it was?

It was an LP featuring Sonny Rollins - I don't remember which - and the liner notes were by Ira Gitler.

Guy

[paul secor]

There was a 1950s LP (on Prestige perhaps) that had on the back a genealogy of tenor influences set out as a diagram. Anyone remember what it was?

It was an LP featuring Sonny Rollins - I don't remember which - and the liner notes were by Ira Gitler.

Guy

Sonny Rollins Plus Four

[Pete C]

I don't think the Don Byas influence has really gotten its due. I hear Byas in lots of players, e.g. Von Freeman, Paul Gonsalves, Roland Kirk, Chico Freeman, Ricky Ford, Daniele D'Agaro, James Carter and a bunch of others.

[king ubu]

There was a 1950s LP (on Prestige perhaps) that had on the back a genealogy of tenor influences set out as a diagram. Anyone remember what it was?

It was an LP featuring Sonny Rollins - I don't remember which - and the liner notes were by Ira Gitler.

Guy

Sonny Rollins Plus Four

I'd love to see a scan of that!

Had the OJCCD but gave it away when I got the box and have missed that fun taxonomy there!

[BillF]

There was a 1950s LP (on Prestige perhaps) that had on the back a genealogy of tenor influences set out as a diagram. Anyone remember what it was?

It was an LP featuring Sonny Rollins - I don't remember which - and the liner notes were by Ira Gitler.

Guy

Sonny Rollins Plus Four

Ah, yes! Thanks! I've just found it reprinted in the booklet of the CD.

(Sorry, no scanner, Ubu )

Edited September 29, 2011 by BillF

[Larry Kart]

Another Byas-influenced player would be Plas Johnson.

[jlhoots]

Where does Hal Singer fit?

[Pete C]

(I seem to remember Dave Liebman, just slightly tongue in cheek, putting himself in the Brooklyn Jews school, with Steve Grossman and Bob Berg, and with Philly-born Michael Brecker as a later "honorary" member...)

When I first heard Elvin Jones Live at The Lighthouse I called it Elvin and the Two Jewish Tranes. Then when I heard Grossman on a live date from the '90s (as leader, but with the McCoy Tyner Trio) on Dreyfus he sounded much more like Rollins.

[Kelly Bucheger]

This is an interesting topic! I'm way too lazy, but would be fun to actually write down a set of categories and then list the tenorists you would put in each one.

Chicago School tenor players are the folks who studied with Captain Walter Dyett at DuSable High: Gene Ammons, Johnny Griffin, Clifford Jordan, John Gilmore, Von Freeman, et al. I think there are some shared affinities in their playing -- in particular a cry in the tenor's upper register.

Texas Tenors include big-toned players like Buddy Tate, Arnett Cobb, Illinois Jacquet, Booker Ervin, Fathead Newman, and Dewey Redman.

I'd love to see a scan of that!

Me too.

For what it's worth, I did something along these lines for Irv Williams, a Twin Cities tenor player receiving a Jazz Master's Award from Arts Midwest. The asked me to put together a chart showing where Irv "fit in." The chart is obviously Irv-centric, and a graphic designer had his way with it before it made its way to print, but here's a scan that gives some broad info along these lines:

When I first heard Elvin Jones Live at The Lighthouse I called it Elvin and the Two Jewish Tranes. Then when I heard Grossman on a live date from the '90s (as leader, but with the McCoy Tyner Trio) on Dreyfus he sounded much more like Rollins.

Indeed! Grossman started out almost entirely Trane-influenced, without any discernible Newk in there at all. And then, somehow, in the '80s or '90s, he started to *really* channel late-50s Sonny ... so that you'd be hearing something that almost sounded like outtakes from Sonny Rollins Live in Stockholm 1959. Except that Steve would be "doing" Sonny but then would interject crazed Trane-changes passages. It was weird and exhilarating...

[marcello]

[Pete C]

Is that Gitler's diagram? I doubt Rollins was an influence on Dexter Gordon! Or Allen Eager for that matter.

Interesting to see the Gray influence on Frank Foster noted--I hear so much Wardell in early Foster. I also think Prez should be noted as an influence on '50s Mobley.

[king ubu]

Thanks for the scan!

[Larry Kart]

Is that Gitler's diagram? I doubt Rollins was an influence on Dexter Gordon! Or Allen Eager for that matter.

Interesting to see the Gray influence on Frank Foster noted--I hear so much Wardell in early Foster. I also think Prez should be noted as an influence on '50s Mobley.

Yes, that's Gitler's diagram. About older players like Gordon and Eager being influenced by Rollins, that's certainly arguable, especially if you were around at the time to hear that going on (as Ira was). As for older players (or if not literally older players already veterans on the scene and seemingly fully formed) in general being influenced by players who are younger, Coltrane's widespread influence on such figures would be an obvious example (see Harold Land, Frank Foster, the list could go on and on), as would the pervasive influence of Bill Evans (on Hampton Hawes, for one).

[Pete C]

as would the pervasive influence of Bill Evans (on Hampton Hawes, for one).

Marian McPartland, for another. I don't really know any post-Rollins Eager, but I just don't hear much Rollins in Dexter's approach at any time, and that diagram is from what was pretty much his lost years.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Pete C

[Dan Gould]

Where does this category fit in?

And I can't find an image online but there was a compilation of 40s recordings by Ike Quebec, Illinois Jacquet and Ben Webster (I think) called Angry Young Tenors

. That is if I remember the album title correctly.

[Pete C]

Where does this category fit in?

Neo-[fill in the blank]

[king ubu]

[Pete C]

They were angry way before Shepp! If that's angry, Lockjaw was one of my favorite angry tenors.

[JSngry]

Indeed! Grossman started out almost entirely Trane-influenced, without any discernible Newk in there at all.

What I hear is that Grossman had Bird down by the time he was 14 or 15 and then moved on to Trane.

[Leeway]

I don't think anyone touched on the European school of tenor players. I am thinking more of the modern players like Brotzmann and Evan Parker. They would seem to warrant their own taxonomy.

[JSngry]

Yeah, more flow charts, please!