Chuck Nessa Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 After the fusion craze of the early 70's when everyone seemed to want at least a Fender Rhodes on a session someone like Murray coming along in the middle of the decade must have seemed like he was relighting the torch. From your vantage point you misunderstand viewpoints at the time. The "avant garde" was strong and thrived throughout the '70s. Most of the fusion stuff ran in parallel, having little effect on "a-g". The greatest fusion influence was on hard boppers trying to "update" their sound to get an audience back. Murray was one of a number of newer voices getting attention in the mid '70s. For example, Air made their first recording in late '75. and the Hat Hut and Black Saint labels were just starting. "Avant garde" didn't begin to fade "as a commercial entity" until the wave of "Reagan conservatism" swept the country. Damn right wing sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Dolphin Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 I'll admit I was being a bit glib(it was late)but the point I was trying to make that from what I've heard and read at the time Murray's arrival (along with many others)perhaps seemed to herald a new dawn for the avant -garde(the new Ayler etc.)-I know there were plenty still keeping the flame alight.I just think that advancements in the music were minimal after the 60's(barring fusions of various types),pop and rock haven't changed fundamentally either.Dance music,rap,hip-hop are different matters tho' I see music in general after the sixties as going forward with a cross fertilisation between genres(fusions)rather than advancing at the pace it had before.This is sounding like I'm saying free music was a creative dead end,I'm not,but how much further out could the music be taken after "Ascension"?Thankfully these regions are still being explored and there's plenty of great music being made and hopefully continuing to be made but I for one am glad Murray made albums like "Spirituals" and "Shakill's Warrior" aswell as "Low Class Conspiracy". I got into the music in the 80's and here in the UK jazz made a revival as a lifestyle accessory-playing in the background of wine bars,Monk advertising Volkswagens ,the sharp suits(no I wasn't in that demographic),we had our Wyntons here too.Whilst I had no time for that poltical climate(Thatcherism,Reaganomics there wasn't a lot of difference,and as we know this still lives on)can I offer this chilling thought-if we didn't have all that then maybe we wouldn't have the the veritable cornucopia of choice we have today re. the reissues,new releases,mags,forums.I'd love to see Henry Threadgill in the Lincoln Center rather than Marsalis but that's not going to happen.Too many sheep!!!The margins are the first places to get the squeeze in hard times.Looks like I'm espousing trickle-down here,hell I need a lie down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 27, 2003 Report Share Posted April 27, 2003 I enjoy much of Murray's work, from the earliest to the latest, but I am still bugged by the seeming "fact" that he doesn't seem to be able to swing his eigth notes. When he first began playing standards, some of his note choices seemed a bit careless too. It's sometimes tempting to hear him as a poor man's George Adams, but that is ultimately unfair to both men. As for Crouch & Jazz Times, if they did in fact fire him over the Douglas article, then they are playing right into his hands and, truth be told, making his point for him. Since there are no heroes in this particular battle, I suppose that sighs and chuckles are called for in equal measure. Threre's really no need to attempt to silence Crouch. Keep giving him a forum and keep letting him practice his disingenuity and he will take care of discrediting himself quite nicely over time. He and his school of thought has been a "fad" that has finally begun to fade over the last five years or so. Waiting for the inevitable is not always pretty (or easy), but it's about the only "sure thing" left in today's world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vibes Posted April 27, 2003 Report Share Posted April 27, 2003 Welcome back, Jim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 27, 2003 Report Share Posted April 27, 2003 Thanks! I hope to be back a bit more regularly, if only slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Dolphin Posted April 27, 2003 Report Share Posted April 27, 2003 It's sometimes tempting to hear him as a poor man's George Adams, but that is ultimately unfair to both men. Poor...certainly,particularly when DIW were laying 'em out in threes in the early 90's. And I've barely spent a penny on George... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 27, 2003 Report Share Posted April 27, 2003 And I've barely spent a penny on George... This, then, might be a case where a penny spent is a penny learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Dolphin Posted April 27, 2003 Report Share Posted April 27, 2003 ...as such.Though he pops up as a sideman on plenty of things I have,(Mingus,Pullen,Ulmer/Phalanx)I just wasn't buying them for George's presence alone.Funny thing is I'd always thought vice versa on the original quote re. the poor man's(there's a brief entertaining thread there somewhere...Anthony Braxton,the poor man's Kenny G).There are many paths... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 great thread! the thing about a murray cd is it is either hit or miss! now "real deal" is a hit! B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted September 27, 2004 Report Share Posted September 27, 2004 Couple of MIA members in that thread (not talking about Mnytime!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 shakill's warrior!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 19, 2005 Report Share Posted June 19, 2005 Wasn't the original question about a 'vanguard mainstream'? In that case, Dave Douglas would be a '90s-00's equivalent to David Murray, but without the blues chops. I sort of feel that David Ware is like that, too, though his music is significantly less palatable to a general audience... still, he's a bit of a 'token' player of free music, with a lot of free tenor tropes and nothing much to show for them. Vandermark was on that slide as well for a minute, but he seemed to get back on track and I think his output of the last few years has been great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjazzman Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 what did chuck say about one of my favorites booker ervin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 what did chuck say about one of my favorites booker ervin? ← Two solos - one fast, one slow. Good solos, but only two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalo Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 So for Murray it would be only one? Husky but rhythmically clunky, then abruptly high and squeaky? Actually, I like him, especially on bass clarinet. And I think The Hill deserves its reputation as one of the best jazz records of the '80s. He's far from my favorite, though. I think that Giddins may have done him a disservice with his relentless hype. I think Murray's had an honorable career, however, and employed many fine musicians. But I can't remember the last time I bought a record of his. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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