Strange quote from Chick Corea

[A Lark Ascending]

Ah, the myth of the great artist.

Why myth? I really don't get your dismissive response to the idea that, yes, there are great artists, and yes, they do create from themselves, and no, they don't do audience polling ahead of time.

It's something not just confined to...ahem...'Art'. In general you can engage people more if you tell a story biographically. The Second World War in Britain engages far more if you put Winston Churchill as the hero figure; the Civil Rights Movement generally gets hung round the personality of Martin Luther King; and, of course, WWII in Europe was all about the ambitions of Adolf Hitler. It's not hard to see why the tale is told that way; but if you really want to analyse those events then something much more complex emerges.

Similarly, the tale of Bebop is easier to tell hung round a few juicy personalities (Parker or Powell or whoever); the origins of jazz...Louis Armstrong, Sidney Bechet, Bix Beiderbecke etc of course.

That's not to deny the enormous influence individual musicians can have on shunting things one way or another. But the 'myth' of the great artist (or the great man in history) is just a winning way of telling the tale, not what really happened.

Edited November 4, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[Hot Ptah]

don't say that - I've been waiting for the Revolution

Or the linear progress toward the City of God?

[Pete C]

there is love and affirmation in a lot of great art, but that's just a lucky, occasional side effect, and one missing in a lot of great art - think Kafka, Soutine, Bud Powell (we will disagree here, but I think he's answering to a much deeper muse than humanity); also Tristano, who was a grade a asshole IMHO and had contempt for audiences; Beckett, without a doubt; Buchner, who invented modern theater; Robert Johnson had other concerns, as did Son House - we could go on and on here.....

Kafka and Beckett are full of affirmation. You just need a microscope.

[Leeway]

Everyone from Aristotle to Horace to Edmund Burke to Tolstoy to Adorno has had their say on "What is Art?" and "Who Is an Artist?. So I recognize there is quite a lot to say about the subject, and it would be hopeless to cover the subject here in any meaningful way. I am basically just voicing objections to what I consider slack or easy ways to talk about art. For example, I don't think just because something or someone is "warm-hearted" that that makes it art, admirable as that might be as a social sentiment. Ditto concern for the audience, uplift, social good, patriotism, etc. Art may be none of things and still be great art. I suppose I'm a Modernist by inclination, and say that art is for itself.

As for the artist, that label is slapped on a lot of folks, but time sifts the pretenders out and eventually we see who matters more clearly. I'm not arguing for the great man (or great woman) theory of art as Bev suggests, which posits that great men (it's a sexist perspective usually) move history in certain ways. I posited the idea of the great artist as an aesthetic construct rather than an historical vehicle. Again, I take a Modernist view that importance is not in social effect, but in the art itself.

This is actually an old-fashioned position now, as post-modernism seeks to erase the concept of the single, creating artist. That just does not accord with my understanding and apprehension of art: music, literature, painting. Artists can be influenced by a 1000 things, as we all are, but we all have not written "Ulysses," or painted "Number 8, 1949," or composed "Le Sacre du Printemps."

[fasstrack]

Ah, the myth of the great artist.

...yes, they do create from themselves, and no, they don't do audience polling ahead of time.

Lee, I answered you sev. posts ago-but have a mere cell ph. to wk. W-hence abbrvs., also can scroll but so far so I can't answer your latest. Ah, the joys of poverty (;

[fasstrack]

Allen: Risking the always-stupid 'I like my guy best' argument: Stan Getz was not well-liked. Bird pawned fans' horns. From personal experience: Woody Shaw-what a dick. But I love them as-choke, sputter, PTOOEY-artists. Tristano? Perhaps a genius, but for me unlistenable. Great ideas/constructs, zero warmth. Swing? Sure TALKED a good game. His cult was sicko-I met many. The major talent of that crowd IMO: Warne Marsh. (early Lee great too.

[A Lark Ascending]

apprehension of art

Can't identify with most of your post.

But I do share your apprehension of 'Art'.

[cih]

'Art'

I can type it but I can't say it. Same with 'Jazz' for that matter

[A Lark Ascending]

The word always sounds in my head in the accent of:

[brian Sewell - upper-crust British guardian of the portals of civilisation]

I also get constant visions of:

[especially the Wine Club episode]

Edited November 5, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[cih]

Yep - and with 'Jazz' I still get this:

[A Lark Ascending]

Me too!

[ATR]

If Corea's statement is just stating the obvious, it's thoroughly uninteresting.

Maybe it's profound in a Scientology context.

I've always attributed his comments about putting communication with an audience above all else to his involvement with Scientology, but I don't know enough about Scientology to know why it would relate. It's too simple to say he wanted to make a lot of money and give it to the church. Or keep it himself. Jazz is not a high paying gig, after all. What's odd is the remark about executions. I think it's true that if we were forced to watch them there would be more opposition to the death penalty, which is what I hope he's saying. But why bring it up in the context of musical performance? Seems to be a non sequitur. Anyway, Chick is a great musician and if you don't like the music he played before, with, and right after Miles I just don't know what to tell you. Yeah, I don't listen to him much anymore either. That's my problem, not Chick's.

[jazzbo]

Anyway, Chick is a great musician and if you don't like the music he played before, with, and right after Miles I just don't know what to tell you.

I'm with you. Listened to Miles Davis at Fillmore this morning and was really enjoying Chick. (And Keith. And Dave. And Jack. And Miles. And Steve. And Airto!)

I was wondering if there was a Scientological context to his statement. But it doesn't matter. Neither does the statement.

[Leeway]

The word always sounds in my head in the accent of:

[brian Sewell - upper-crust British guardian of the portals of civilisation]

I also get constant visions of:

[especially the Wine Club episode]

Yep - and with 'Jazz' I still get this:

I'v heard therapy might help in such cases.

[cih]

I'v heard therapy might help in such cases.

something like this?

talking of Scientology - I think therapy is out of bounds? - we would need to be 'audited'

Edited November 9, 2011 by cih

[Quasimado]

there is love and affirmation in a lot of great art, but that's just a lucky, occasional side effect, and one missing in a lot of great art - think Kafka, Soutine, Bud Powell (we will disagree here, but I think he's answering to a much deeper muse than humanity); also Tristano, who was a grade a asshole IMHO and had contempt for audiences; Beckett, without a doubt; Buchner, who invented modern theater; Robert Johnson had other concerns, as did Son House - we could go on and on here.....

Allen you keep repeating your thing on Tristano based on some interview you did when you were a teenager... well, whatever, his music speaks for itself - check out the Jazz Records catalogue - not to mention the many who, contrary to you, knew him well and admired him greatly.

Q

Edited November 9, 2011 by Quasimado

[A Lark Ascending]

I'v heard therapy might help in such cases.

Or indoctrination by the 'Art' lobby.

[Leeway]

I'v heard therapy might help in such cases.

Or indoctrination by the 'Art' lobby.

[JETman]

D'ya think we could stop already with the mindless criticism of a musician who happened to say one "bad" thing? All that should really matter is that Corea's given much to the music that we all enjoy so much. He still performs at a VERY high level for a spry old man aged 70!

Methinks this has more to do with some automatic ridicule for his beliefs. As far as I know, we still do have religious freedom in the US.

[cih]

not that anybody's criticized him for nearly a week...

don't worry, he won't be reading anyway - Scientologists aren't supposed to consort with suppressive persons

[JETman]

not that anybody's criticized him for nearly a week...

don't worry, he won't be reading anyway - Scientologists aren't supposed to consort with suppressive persons

what are you, like 12?

[AllenLowe]

"Allen you keep repeating your thing on Tristano based on some interview you did when you were a teenager... well, whatever, his music speaks for itself - check out the Jazz Records catalogue - not to mention the many who, contrary to you, knew him well and admired him greatly."

Quasi - first of all I was not a teenager; second of all, I don't really care what the Koolaid kids have to say about a guy who was nasty and petty, had his friend Warne Marsh enter psychoanalysis with his own brother (truly a manipulative and disgusting thing to do) and who thought everybody else in the world was his spiritual, moral, and musical inferior. Lennie was a classic genius/manipulator; as long as you told him he was God, he loved you and you loved him.

this is based not merely on my personal experience but on the testimony of many of his peers, whom I knew and spoke to .

he was also, btw, a great pianist and teacher. So take the blinders off.

Edited November 10, 2011 by AllenLowe

[cih]

what are you, like 12?

thanks dude

[ATR]

D'ya think we could stop already with the mindless criticism of a musician who happened to say one "bad" thing? All that should really matter is that Corea's given much to the music that we all enjoy so much. He still performs at a VERY high level for a spry old man aged 70!

Methinks this has more to do with some automatic ridicule for his beliefs. As far as I know, we still do have religious freedom in the US.

Chick is a great musician, check my posts, but and he does have freedom to believe anything he wants. But is scientology a religion? More of a cult, according to what I read.

[JETman]

D'ya think we could stop already with the mindless criticism of a musician who happened to say one "bad" thing? All that should really matter is that Corea's given much to the music that we all enjoy so much. He still performs at a VERY high level for a spry old man aged 70!

Methinks this has more to do with some automatic ridicule for his beliefs. As far as I know, we still do have religious freedom in the US.

Chick is a great musician, check my posts, but and he does have freedom to believe anything he wants. But is scientology a religion? More of a cult, according to what I read.

You seem to be missing the point of my post.

Are you saying that if it's a cult, and not a religion, that he doesn't have the freedom to follow it as he wishes? Does he seem the worse for wear? Does he need saving from the cult, as an impressionable child might? Is this really so different than any other of your jazz heroes deciding mid-life to become muslim? And even if it is, who really cares? Anyone here is free to NOT buy his new music. To just drone on and on about some insignificant facet of his life is just plain ignorant and WRONG!