Why Jazz Isn't Cool Anymore

[Neal Pomea]

That blog has some strange things on it, but, personally speaking, its stuff like:

Our whole purpose on this planet is to evolve.

that ruffles my own feathers most

and

As a postmodern musician, it’s my duty to do better than my predecessors...

It’s called evolution.

no it's not!

Funny, I felt the same way you do about some of those "minor" quotes that are not getting discussed much. Thanks for mentioning these points.

[A Lark Ascending]

I've always felt that music (and painting, architecture etc), when not attached to a lyric or a programme but just existing as music, is essentially a tension between the creation of patterns and the disrupting of them.

Most listeners are attracted by patterns (consciously or subconsciously) and get disturbed if they are unsettled (thus the appeal of the regular beat or the well shaped melody). I suspect that one thing that separates people who are more 'involved' in listening is a greater attraction to the disruption. You hear that in classical music where a Haydn or Beethoven (not to mention a Stravinsky!) will take a formal structure and defy expectations by unsettling it.

I suspect to most listeners the problem with jazz is the extent of disruption - like the way a familiar melody can be bent out of shape even in the initial statement, let alone in the jamming.

Even within jazz, tolerance for disruption varies - lots of listeners are quite happy to hear quite radical melodic disruption but get unsettled if things drift too far from a 4/4 swing beat. At the other extreme you get freer jazz where the balance lies more heavily with the disruption.

Not saying anyone is right or wrong in their preferences; but I suspect acquiring a taste for pattern disruption is something that takes a little learning. To many it sounds too ugly to be worth the effort.

Edited December 5, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[JSngry]

Yes, patterns/disruption, tension/release, yin/yang, it's all really the same thing - complementary opposites and the ongoing wants/needs to proportion them in a "meaningful" way.

"Meaningful"...that itself breaks down into two poles of extremes, from players who want it to be all about them to those whose only goal is to plea$e an audience, any audience, and from listeners who are insulted by anything that does not tickle their comfort zone to those who are insulted if it does.

With that many variables, the only "right" thing is for the performer to do what they believe in for an audience who is receptive to hearing it. That's complicated enough right there, especially with everybody telling everybody what they should do at the expense of considering what they want to do. And there, there's another one of those complimentary opposite thingies.

As they used to say (almost) on Chickenman, "THEY'RE EVERYWHERE, THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!!!"

Edited December 5, 2011 by JSngry

[Teasing the Korean]

Noj's theory is interesting, but it does not (unless I missed this detail) take into account the popularity of instrumental electronica and all of its sub genres. I have known people into electronic who were not necessarily jazz listeners. Still, I think there is some truth to what he is saying.

[cih]

related to much of the above is the great little book by Paul Klee (who was aside from being a painter, a very accomplished violinist) - 'On Modern Art':

"… While the artist is still exerting all his efforts to group the formal elements purely and logically so that each in its place is right and none clashes with the other, a layman, watching from behind, pronounces the devastating words “But that isn’t a bit like uncle.”. The artist, if his nerve is disciplined, thinks to himself, 'To hell with uncle! i must get on with my building... This new brick is a little too heavy and to my mind puts too much weight on the left; I must add a good-sized counterweight on the right to restore the equilibrium. ....... I only hope that the layman, who in a picture, always looks for his favourite subject, will, as far as I am concerned, gradually die out and remain to me nothing but a ghost which cannot help its failings"

Edited December 5, 2011 by cih

[marcello]

I don't know if any of you have seen this:

An Open Letter To Marcus Strickland And His Facebook Friends

In short, Payton blows a fuse because Marcus, who is a wonderful saxophonist, composer and very nice man, asked the question (to paraphrase) : Why is Jazz dead, and how is this rant helping anyone?

Payton pisses all over Marcus, and more, in his reply.

Some insightful observations include:

Who in here knows more about the history of this music than me? Who here is qualified to go toe-to-toe with me musically or otherwise on this subject? Any takers? I’ll answer. Not one of you. Not one.

There is no living soul who can walk on a bandstand anywhere in the world and play more horn than me. Period.

Oh, my head hurts!

BAM!

Edited December 5, 2011 by marcello

[Noj]

Noj's theory is interesting, but it does not (unless I missed this detail) take into account the popularity of instrumental electronica and all of its sub genres. I have known people into electronic who were not necessarily jazz listeners. Still, I think there is some truth to what he is saying.

I was trying not to generalize too much, saying "a lot of people" and trying not to say "most."

Perhaps electronic music is where some of the would-be jazz fans are getting their instrumental fix.

I enjoy electronic music too--and the vast majority of the jazz I listen to was recorded decades ago.

[Big Wheel]

Noj's theory is interesting, but it does not (unless I missed this detail) take into account the popularity of instrumental electronica and all of its sub genres. I have known people into electronic who were not necessarily jazz listeners. Still, I think there is some truth to what he is saying.

Most synthesized club music (I won't use the term "electronica" because its practitioners mostly hate it) is highly repetitive and thus predictable. Also, it is generally music expressly designed for dancing.

Not referring to the 1% of this music that actually seems to strive for real experimentation, but rather the 99% that's simply about slapping the same old premade beats and textures together in slightly different ways.

[Noj]

I don't know if any of you have seen this:

An Open Letter To Marcus Strickland And His Facebook Friends

In short, Payton blows a fuse because Marcus, who is a wonderful saxophonist, composer and very nice man, asked the question (to paraphrase) : Why is Jazz dead, and how is this rant helping anyone?

Payton pisses all over Marcus, and more, in his reply.

Some insightful observations include:

Who in here knows more about the history of this music than me? Who here is qualified to go toe-to-toe with me musically or otherwise on this subject? Any takers? I’ll answer. Not one of you. Not one.

There is no living soul who can walk on a bandstand anywhere in the world and play more horn than me. Period.

Oh, my head hurts!

BAM!

Wow, some nerve. If he could drop his ugly ego off at the door, Payton would find more than enough jazz historians and musicians right here on the org board who could more than hold their own in a discussion or a cutting contest against him.

Chops don't equal taste. Individual taste can't be dictated to everyone else. Knowledge doesn't necessarily translate to creative genius.

[thedwork]

I don't know if any of you have seen this:

An Open Letter To Marcus Strickland And His Facebook Friends

ok. imo, that's wayyyyyyyy worse than the jive, annoyingly adolescent, "poetic" rant that was referenced in the opening post of this thread. he's lost a possible supporter because of it for sure. too bad - good player.

but because there are more than enough great musicians in the world that i can get behind, who also seem to be perfectly fine people, i do my best to not waste my time/money/energy supporting assholes if i can avoid it. always a bummer when that happens. oh well...

Edited December 6, 2011 by thedwork

[Teasing the Korean]

Most synthesized club music (I won't use the term "electronica" because its practitioners mostly hate it) is highly repetitive and thus predictable. Also, it is generally music expressly designed for dancing...

...Not referring to the 1% of this music that actually seems to strive for real experimentation, but rather the 99% that's simply about slapping the same old premade beats and textures together in slightly different ways.

Respectfully, your ratios are way off. There is a lot of very interesting, varied, well-arranged electronica that is not just for dancing, much more than 1%.

[Big Wheel]

Not in my experience. For every Aphex Twin or really good brokenbeat/house record there are 100 fakes and amateurs who think that learning the right software automatically means they're master craftsmen. No.

(I'll cop to a little bit of bias here - a friend with by far the WORST musical taste of anyone I know has another friend who makes horrible trance in his spare time, and he holds it and other stuff just like it up like they're the modern equivalent of Beethoven's 9th.)

Edited December 6, 2011 by Big Wheel

[Face of the Bass]

Anyone else take a look at some of Payton's other posts?

There's a lot of anger, frustration and vitriol... very sad.

Well...I took a look at Marcus Strickland's public facebook post that seems to have been the match that set off the latest round. On the one hand, if THAT is really what Payton is reacting to, his reaction seems pretty over the top. Strickland is pretty straightforwardly talking past Payton, and unless I'm missing some context here is not being at all insulting.

On the other hand, as someone who basically started a fight between Bill Summers and Jason Marsalis about issues related to this, I think it would be wrong to ignore the New Orleans context that Payton is operating under here. If you hold the views Payton does, it must be enormously challenging to be a resident of Marsalisland in New Orleans and have to put up with a scene that imposes these kinds of definitions on everything for popular consumption, while not known for being particularly friendly to dissenting ideas on these kinds of meta-issues.

I agree with what you say here. I think people are taking his words too much as a "representation of truth" when what it really is is a kind of artistic manifesto, attempting to stake out some piece of unclaimed land. The discourses that surround jazz most certainly are dead, even if the music is not, which is why over the years we've seen so many attempts by musicians to redefine the music away from this term that they feel imprisons them.

[Tom Storer]

Payton finds himself in hopeless self-contradiction, IMO, in that he protests vigorously about the use of the word "jazz" to describe certain musical styles, and goes to the trouble of inventing a few more names for styles, to finely categorize "New Orleans music," while at the same time saying this:

"When you’re truly creating you don’t have time to think about what to call it.

"Who thinks of what they’ll name the baby while they’re fucking?"

[seeline]

I don't know if any of you have seen this:

An Open Letter To Marcus Strickland And His Facebook Friends

ok. imo, that's wayyyyyyyy worse than the jive, annoyingly adolescent, "poetic" rant that was referenced in the opening post of this thread. he's lost a possible supporter because of it for sure. too bad - good player.

but because there are more than enough great musicians in the world that i can get behind, who also seem to be perfectly fine people, i do my best to not waste my time/money/energy supporting assholes if i can avoid it. always a bummer when that happens. oh well...

imo, Payton's entire blog is pretty much like this.

[Lazaro Vega]

George Colligan's blog: http://jazztruth.blogspot.com/2011/12/further-ado-about-nicholas-payton.html

and this: http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/no-one-plays-more-horn-than-nicholas-payton-an-open-letter-to-jeremy-pelt/

[Big Wheel]

The latest fusillade against Pelt starts off with him yelling at Pelt for not personally talking to him before posting his opinion (which was very respectfully phrased) online. So Payton is allowed to go off on anyone he wants publicly, but people who know him have to check with him first?

I wonder if Payton knows Brian Berger. Because they'd get along fabulously.

Was thinking to myself, "gee, it sure is odd how the guys who stir up this stuff tend to be invariably New Orleans trumpet players." And then a vision of the past came to me....

*******

[The year is 1972 in New Orleans. ELLIS MARSALIS, WALTER PAYTON, and IRVIN MAYFIELD, SR. are stting around a table at MARSALIS'S house smoking cigars and playing poker. MARSALIS'S young children and wife have long since gone to bed.]

MARSALIS: Gentlemen, we have a little problem.

MAYFIELD: What's that?

MARSALIS: Pops died last year and since then nobody has been paying attention to this town's music.

PAYTON: What about Dr. John and The Meters?

MARSALIS: Did Dr. John and The Meters pay your mortgage last month? Because they sure as shit didn't pay mine and I don't think they're going to pay my kid's when he grows up.

PAYTON: ....I see your point.

MAYFIELD: So what are we supposed to do?

MARSALIS: We need better marketing. Much better.

PAYTON: You mean like ads on TV?

MAYFIELD: I already checked with WDSU and the Times-Picayune. TV is too expensive and the paper charges $10 per word.

MARSALIS: [bangs hand on table]No, not fuckin' TV ads! We need a real marketing strategy. We need some serious branding efforts to get our kids' future music's value proposition across.

PAYTON: So what do we do?

MARSALIS: Well, I've been thinking. Louis was great...for Louis. And everyone loved Louis. But love doesn't get people's attention forever. We have to differentiate ourselves by being the anti-Louis. Nobody would give a shit about the Ultimate Warrior if it weren't for Sgt. Slaughter.

MAYFIELD: What do you mean? And who the hell is the Ultimate Warrior?

MARSALIS: Never fucking mind that. Here's what I propose: first, our kids get famous playing trumpet. Then, every 7 or 8 years, just when audience interest is fading, one of our kids starts a little...controversy. And by controversy, I mean they have to just go on this angry, self-contradictory ranting spree about something or other in the music. Just spout bullshit, the dumber the better. The critics can't help themselves. They have to take this shit seriously. Ink gets spilled. People start paying attention again. The money starts rolling back in.

PAYTON (eases back in his seat): I kinda like it. Marketing strategy.

MAYFIELD: Nice work, Ellis.

[HUBERT RUFFINS sticks his head in the door.]

RUFFINS: Sorry, I'm late, everyone. What'd I miss?

PAYTON: Who the fuck are you?

[RUFFINS closes the door and exits.]

THE END

*******

Edited December 11, 2011 by Big Wheel

[Face of the Bass]

George Colligan's blog: http://jazztruth.blogspot.com/2011/12/further-ado-about-nicholas-payton.html

and this: http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/no-one-plays-more-horn-than-nicholas-payton-an-open-letter-to-jeremy-pelt/

Okay, I take back all the stuff I said before. Payton is simply a jackass.

[thedwork]

George Colligan's blog: http://jazztruth.blogspot.com/2011/12/further-ado-about-nicholas-payton.html

and this: http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/no-one-plays-more-horn-than-nicholas-payton-an-open-letter-to-jeremy-pelt/

Okay, I take back all the stuff I said before. Payton is simply a jackass.

:rofl:

[Dan Gould]

The latest fusillade against Pelt starts off with him yelling at Pelt for not personally talking to him before posting his opinion (which was very respectfully phrased) online. So Payton is allowed to go off on anyone he wants publicly, but people who know him have to check with him first?

I wonder if Payton knows Brian Berger. Because they'd get along fabulously.

Was thinking to myself, "gee, it sure is odd how the guys who stir up this stuff tend to be invariably New Orleans trumpet players." And then a vision of the past came to me....

*******

[The year is 1972 in New Orleans. ELLIS MARSALIS, WALTER PAYTON, and IRVIN MAYFIELD, SR. are stting around a table at MARSALIS'S house smoking cigars and playing poker. MARSALIS'S young children and wife have long since gone to bed.]

Cute, but in 1972, if it would have been "nobody gives a shit about Bruno Sammartino if it wasn't for Superstar Billy Graham".

[JSngry]

Payton's still fighting yesterday's battles with day-before-yesterday's ammo, but damn did I get a chuckle out of this:

Lawd, We Be Done Made It To Da Promised Land

Right now, “JA**” lives on Columbus Circle, the most coveted piece of realty in all of Manhattan. “Lawd, we be done made it to the Promised Land. We got a soda attached to the names of one of our ancestors. We gots rich White folk who gives us money to build this nice establishment here. So what, if we gotta tap dance a little to get them to sign that check. So what, if I have to keep making contrived Blues records with White artists because it’s the image of Black music that our White donors are comfortable seeing. “JA** Hands”

and this

You say that the music has transcended the whorehouse like that is a good thing. “JiveASS” musicians are so uptight. It’s killing the music. Sex is the life force. I don’t have a problem with whorehouses and I certainly wouldn’t have a problem with my music being played in places where people fucked.

[Noj]

Is Payton's muse the notion that white people and black people can't be friends; that there is no amicable solution to race relations; that anything which pleases an audience of white people is selling out; that jazz must forever be a reminder of slavery; that what makes jazz "good" from a black American perspective is that which doesn't please whitey?

Is true jazz reverse racism? Is the very fact that I (a middle class suburban white man) like jazz what makes it not cool?

Edited December 11, 2011 by Noj

[Shawn]

George Colligan's blog: http://jazztruth.blo...las-payton.html

and this: http://nicholaspayto...to-jeremy-pelt/

Okay, I take back all the stuff I said before. Payton is simply a jackass.

Amen to that. Payton needs to shut the fuck up and play his horn.

[JSngry]

I found this to be of some, slight clarifying interest: http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/on-why-i-keep-beating-this-racist-horse/

A lot of ramble, but not without some truth as well.

Payton is surely correct that America is still operating under a colonialist mentality. But if thinks it's just black people and black music that is affected, he's too blind to do anybody any good, especially that of his own interest which he seeks to liberate.

[Shawn]

This one sentence is enough to make me ignore ANYTHING this cat has to say:

"I mean, the hubris of a White man to give me a history lesson on a music that I’m an established master in."