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New Jim Hall Live Artist Share Project


JETman

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It consists of two separate pieces:

-- a new quartet recording at Birdland with Greg Osby, Steve LaSpina and Joey Baron

AND (this is the BIG surprise)

-- a 3 cd box set containing 3+ hours of newly discovered, previously unreleased music from the "Jim Hall - Live!" sessions recorded at the Bourbon Street club in Toronto in 1975

Price for the box set is kind of steep at $75.

Just wanted to see what others thought:

http://www.artistshare.com/v4/Projects/Experience/7/431/1

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I did cave in on the $75. I was in a spend happy mood then... :) You are right though... Their price scheme has gotten too high. I will be buying very few new releases from them in the future. I'll get the new Maria Schneider but that's probably it for a long time. :(

Well, I certainly like the "Jim Hall - Live!" session, but $ 75 for three more CD's is serious coin, a little rich for me, I'm afraid. I'm not sure I'm totally sold on the Artist Share model. Most everything they do seems a bit pricey.

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I did cave in on the $75. I was in a spend happy mood then... :) You are right though... Their price scheme has gotten too high. I will be buying very few new releases from them in the future. I'll get the new Maria Schneider but that's probably it for a long time. :(

Well, I certainly like the "Jim Hall - Live!" session, but $ 75 for three more CD's is serious coin, a little rich for me, I'm afraid. I'm not sure I'm totally sold on the Artist Share model. Most everything they do seems a bit pricey.

I know, it's difficult to fathom. Mosaic has pretty much set the bar for jazz box sets, and they only charge $17 per disc.

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Mosaic has pretty much set the bar for jazz box sets, and they only charge $17 per disc.

Mosaic doesn't have session-production costs, though. Those have long been paid off.

Remember - the money you spend on an Artist Share project is not just for the CDs, packaging, etc. It's also for paying the musicians, engineers, studio costs, everything.

LTB & I put in $500.00 on one of Monday Michiru's AS projects, pre-production. Wish it could have been 4-5 times that, because even with everything being "self-contained" these days, shit still costs money. She wanted to do more with horns, more with post-production, but the money was just not there. She still made a damn fine album, and if you didn't know better, you'd just think she was being "minimalist" in her production. But the business reality is that she did the most she could with what she had. That wasn't nearly as much an artistic choice as it was a financial necessity.

So just keep this in mind - on most regular labels, somebody funds the date up front and recoups (or not) through sales and whatnot. With Artist Share, you the consumer fund the project up front, and what you recoup is product. And pride, if you represent like that.

If you believe in the people and their music enough, pay the cost and be proud that you're not just buying CDs, you're financing record dates.

Walk Tall, Mr. & Mrs. Big Shot Record Producers!

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Mosaic has pretty much set the bar for jazz box sets, and they only charge $17 per disc.

Mosaic doesn't have session-production costs, though. Those have long been paid off.

Remember - the money you spend on an Artist Share project is not just for the CDs, packaging, etc. It's also for paying the musicians, engineers, studio costs, everything.

LTB & I put in $500.00 on one of Monday Michiru's AS projects, pre-production. Wish it could have been 4-5 times that, because even with everything being "self-contained" these days, shit still costs money. She wanted to do more with horns, more with post-production, but the money was just not there. She still made a damn fine album, and if you didn't know better, you'd just think she was being "minimalist" in her production. But the business reality is that she did the most she could with what she had. That wasn't nearly as much an artistic choice as it was a financial necessity.

So just keep this in mind - on most regular labels, somebody funds the date up front and recoups (or not) through sales and whatnot. With Artist Share, you the consumer fund the project up front, and what you recoup is product. And pride, if you represent like that.

If you believe in the people and their music enough, pay the cost and be proud that you're not just buying CDs, you're financing record dates.

Walk Tall, Mr. & Mrs. Big Shot Record Producers!

Thanks for the explanation.

What are the session production costs, though, for live sessions that took place 37 years ago? After all, Mosaic releases previously unreleased live recordings (see Sam Rivers Select), and they don't increase their price.

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Mosaic has pretty much set the bar for jazz box sets, and they only charge $17 per disc.

LTB & I put in $500.00 on one of Monday Michiru's AS projects, pre-production. Wish it could have been 4-5 times that, because even with everything being "self-contained" these days, shit still costs money. She wanted to do more with horns, more with post-production, but the money was just not there. She still made a damn fine album, and if you didn't know better, you'd just think she was being "minimalist" in her production. But the business reality is that she did the most she could with what she had. That wasn't nearly as much an artistic choice as it was a financial necessity.

I have seen Monday Michiru's name mentioned before on this board but I'm ashamed to say that I have never heard anything by her. To remedy this I have just put an order in for her "Four Seasons" compilation album. Please don't tell me this is not the one I should have ordered!

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You raise good points JS... But my concern for example is Maria Schneider's latest. You can pay $20 for the CD and then the next price point is $350.00 To me that's ridiculous! I love her stuff, have all of her CD's but there's no way I would or could give her $350. Previously for other projects she had other pricing options (e.g., $40, etc.). I'm happy to support the concept. I've probably bought over a 15 CDs from artistshare BUT they have got to have more intermediate (modest) funding options.

Like Virginia Mayhew (renmarecordings.com) did the same thing (along with other artists who use kickstarter). I gave her $50 since I love her stuff. I got listed on the CD which was great. The max I would give for almost any artist would be $100. Jim Hall's $75 was a stretch and I only did that cause I have the original CD.

I'm totally into supporting the artists directly. I just think (given this economy especially) it's not fair to those of us who don't have $350 to limit our participation to two options.

Edited by tranemonk
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I'm totally into supporting the artists directly.

I struggle with the concept, not only because the world is not short of recorded music, but mainly because the money goes for studio time, engineers, sessional musicians, etc. It would take a lot to make me feel a project was really necessary.

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David: This is probably the first time I've seen someone on this Board complain about the amount of recorded music in the world! :) We here have likely added to the problem - too many CD purchases, overflowing shelves, too much time spent on jazz bulletin boards, demanding the release of new CD's - like - "get those new Uptown CD's out NOW!" etc. etc.

I think new music has to be recorded. I have no problem with that. Creativity is an artist's life-blood. In fact, I myself have made some small donations to artists in order to help their projects along. And in retrospect the price for the new Jim Hall single CD was really OK. It's the price point of the 3 CD Live set that I am questioning. Jim S's points are well-taken.

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What are the session production costs, though, for live sessions that took place 37 years ago? After all, Mosaic releases previously unreleased live recordings (see Sam Rivers Select), and they don't increase their price.

I would think that the extra monies received from the selling of the old material would be put towards offsetting the costs of the new project,

Artist Share allows their artists to set up their own pricing structure, so if (and I don't know if he did) Hall chose to not offer all the uber-high-dollar participant packages (I've seen some projects with, like, a $5000.00 price tag with all kinds of "perks"), then it would seem that he's aiming to offer a 4 CD set for $75.00, thinking that he'll ultimately net more that way than selling one or two lavish packages. He may or may not prove to be right.

Same with Maria Schnieder, she's been doing this long enough that she's no doubt done the math and came to the conclusion that she'll ne X amount of dollars to make the project do-able, and past participation activities project out to these price points being the most likely way to get it. And if the gap between $20.00 & $350.00 is too wide for comfort, just buy 3 CDs for $60.00 & give the extras as gifts. She still gets the money, and you get to spread her music around.

Remeber this about Artist Share - for every project you see, the real "producer" is the artist themself, not some Albert Lion or Milt Gable or Bernard Stollman or Chuck Nessa who has the money in hand up front to pay everybody. It's a different business model, and the jury is still out on how viable it will prove to be long-term, but no matter what the pricing structures, I don't know of anybody who's making really lush profits of of any of these projects. A music having a niche audience does not give that music an automatic discount from studios, engineers, designers, printers, etc. They got to pay no matter what.

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Jim: Just to make a slight correction to your post. The "Live at Birdland" is 18.95 (no problem). The 3 CD Live set is $75. (I would be interested at the Mosaic Select price of $44, but this is too much).

When I read the first post I was assuming that it was all 4 CD's for $75, but when I checked the website, the pricing structure is as I've outlined.

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I have seen Monday Michiru's name mentioned before on this board but I'm ashamed to say that I have never heard anything by her. To remedy this I have just put an order in for her "Four Seasons" compilation album. Please don't tell me this is not the one I should have ordered!

I'd have gotten the full 2-CD set myself, but that and Routes (on Artist Share!) are the two to get if you want the best possible first impression. Just know that her music seems to be one of those things that people either really, really like, or else just shrug and say "huh?" about. But those songs...

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Jim: Just to make a slight correction to your post. The "Live at Birdland" is 18.95 (no problem). The 3 CD Live set is $75. (I would be interested at the Mosaic Select price of $44, but this is too much).

When I read the first post I was assuming that it was all 4 CD's for $75, but when I checked the website, the pricing structure is as I've outlined.

4 for 75 would have made more sense to me, but otoh, 18.95 is "high normal" for a single CD...3-75 does seem a bit high, but I guess he did the math and projected that there were X people who would pay it (and realistically, even a lower price, how many people are going to buy a 3 CD set of live Jim Hall, period? Not that many.), and that was what was needed to make it work.

Time will tell if he was right.

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That's what I was saying. Like Mosaic, Hall does NOT have session production costs related to the 3 cd archival set. As a matter of fact, all costs associated with that release should at least fall in line with what Mosaic pays for leasing, notes, pressing, mixing/mastering, cost of materials (btw, it's not even known if this is an LP sized box), etc.

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I have seen Monday Michiru's name mentioned before on this board but I'm ashamed to say that I have never heard anything by her. To remedy this I have just put an order in for her "Four Seasons" compilation album. Please don't tell me this is not the one I should have ordered!

I'd have gotten the full 2-CD set myself, but that and Routes (on Artist Share!) are the two to get if you want the best possible first impression. Just know that her music seems to be one of those things that people either really, really like, or else just shrug and say "huh?" about. But those songs...

Thanks, Jim.

I'll listen to "Four Seasons" before deciding whether to get anything else.

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That's what I was saying. Like Mosaic, Hall does NOT have session production costs related to the 3 cd archival set. As a matter of fact, all costs associated with that release should at least fall in line with what Mosaic pays for leasing, notes, pressing, mixing/mastering, cost of materials (btw, it's not even known if this is an LP sized box), etc.

Still not the same business model. Apples & oranges.

Mosaic has a corporate partner, a multiple item catalog that enables them to get better pricing on quantity items like printing, boxes, etc. Plus, if one item moves slower than expected, another one might move faster. It's not like Mosaic has just one product to offer and they got to make all their money back on that one item.

Artist Share just provides the artists with a forum and tools like websites, electronic press kits, etc. No money, though. None. As I understand it, all actual production expenses are borne by the artists themselves, which is where they have to set a price point that think will allow them to recoup expenses.

So of course Mosaic (established company) could offer a lower price point than Jim Hall (individual).

This record business...it costs more than you think (and I hear Chuck already laughing and bellowing YOU HAVE NO IDEA :g ), and making your money back on a one-off project is anything but easy.

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That's what I was saying. Like Mosaic, Hall does NOT have session production costs related to the 3 cd archival set. As a matter of fact, all costs associated with that release should at least fall in line with what Mosaic pays for leasing, notes, pressing, mixing/mastering, cost of materials (btw, it's not even known if this is an LP sized box), etc.

Still not the same business model. Apples & oranges.

Mosaic has a corporate partner, a multiple item catalog that enables them to get better pricing on quantity items like printing, boxes, etc. Plus, if one item moves slower than expected, another one might move faster. It's not like Mosaic has just one product to offer and they got to make all their money back on that one item.

Artist Share just provides the artists with a forum and tools like websites, electronic press kits, etc. No money, though. None. As I understand it, all actual production expenses are borne by the artists themselves, which is where they have to set a price point that think will allow them to recoup expenses.

So of course Mosaic (established company) could offer a lower price point than Jim Hall (individual).

This record business...it costs more than you think (and I hear Chuck already laughing and bellowing YOU HAVE NO IDEA :g ), and making your money back on a one-off project is anything but easy.

I certainly hear what you're saying, but this begs the question: why did our own Mr. Lowe NOT find it necessary to charge $75 for a 3 cd set resulting from NEW studio sessions? Surely new old Jim Hall stuff is gonna sell more widely than Allen's, no offense intended, of course!

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That's a good point. In theory it shouldn't cost Jim Hall a whole lot more to remaster and duplicate and do liner notes and package older material than it costs Uptown, for example. You get 2 CD's in the new Mobley set for less than the price of one CD in the Hall set. Looking at the website description, it seems like they are relying on the "limited edition" nature of the set to justify the price. It is strange that the new CD is less costly than the 37 year old remastered material (good as this latter is, no doubt). I still think the new set is too expensive. If that proves to be the case and sales are slow, then Jim Hall will have made a strategic business blunder.

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Does anyone have a track list, or other details? The Artist Share site has no information available, just pricing and ordering info... If this is what I believe it to be, I've heard it all (via Don Thompson) and it'll be great.

The talk about money is all relevant (for some of us more than others), but when it comes to music, I can recommend it. It's likely I was there when it was being played -- I never missed Jim's work with Don and Terry at Bourbon Street. (Is it really three-and-a-half decades ago???)

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I certainly hear what you're saying, but this begs the question: why did our own Mr. Lowe NOT find it necessary to charge $75 for a 3 cd set resulting from NEW studio sessions?

The only way to answer that is to ask Mssrs. Hall & Lowe what they put into it and what they expected to get back from it

But - Allen's project was all original material, right? He might not be paying himself composing & publishing royalties in an attempt to keep the cost down. Mr. Hall would not have that option (well, he would, but...you know).

Plus, I don't know, maybe Jim Hall's going all "deluxe" on the packaging. That can cost a bundle right there...

Edited by JSngry
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That's a good point. In theory it shouldn't cost Jim Hall a whole lot more to remaster and duplicate and do liner notes and package older material than it costs Uptown, for example. You get 2 CD's in the new Mobley set for less than the price of one CD in the Hall set. Looking at the website description, it seems like they are relying on the "limited edition" nature of the set to justify the price. It is strange that the new CD is less costly than the 37 year old remastered material (good as this latter is, no doubt). I still think the new set is too expensive. If that proves to be the case and sales are slow, then Jim Hall will have made a strategic business blunder.

A jazz musician make a business blunder? Never! :g

I wonder if John Snyder is involved in this package, maybe as a partner with Hall...he's never been one to shy away from putting a premium price on premium packaging...

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I wonder if John Snyder is involved in this package, maybe as a partner with Hall...he's never been one to shy away from putting a premium price on premium packaging...

Don Thompson, who played bass AND recorded these, told me this afternoon that Jim's daughter is now his manager, and she's the one behind the project, so I suppose Snyder is not involved.

Thompson remarked "I doubt that Jim ever sounded much better than this", and I agree. As I mentioned before, I heard these guys darn near every night they played at Bourbon St., and the music just seemed to flow effortlessly. Completely relaxed, yet completely focused.

I think this material is from an engagement before the June 1975 Horizon release -- October 1974.

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