The Magnificent Goldberg Posted December 1, 2012 Report Posted December 1, 2012 People often speak of a 'Ben Webster pace' and I know what they mean I was thinking about this earlier and I got the idea that other musicians had their own distinctive pace. Bill Doggett was one, that sassy strolling, hip rolling strut best captured in 'Honky tonk'. Gene Ammons was another. A kind of relaxed medium up, often with a conga behind him. Good examples are 'Seed shack' and 'Moonglow'. Lou Donaldson is, it seems to me, very comfortable at this pace - 'Blues walk' for example. So is Houston Person. Who else has their own distinctive pace? MG Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted December 1, 2012 Author Report Posted December 1, 2012 I THINK I see what you mean, though I'm a long way from familiar with much Blakey. I think there's stuff like 'Moanin'' and 'Dat dere', 'The chess players' and Grant Green's 'Ain't necessarily so' which might fall into a kind of pace thing. But there's also a load of much faster things where Blakey is driving things - like Jimmy SMith's 'The duel'. WHat would be the examples of what you mean? MG Quote
JSngry Posted December 1, 2012 Report Posted December 1, 2012 More of the former. Whenever somebody wants to cop an explicit "Blakey feel", it seems like it's usually that mid-tempoed hard-backbeat groove. You hear somebody else do that, and it's impossible to think anything besides BLAKEY! Although, the "Blakey Latin" feel as exemplified on "A Night In Tunisia" is pretty distinctive as well. So's the "Elvin Latin" feel, but Elvin is one of the most distinctive drummers ever, regardless of what "groove" is being put forth, so... When it comes to "pace" that carries over to all tempos, I'd have to say that Dexter Gordon had one. He had a very distinctive/personal way of finding his space inside any given tempo. Part of that is the time of his tone, but it's just as much the tone of his time, how he neither overfills or underfills the space that each note occupies with his tone - although he quite often fills it to right to the breaking point! But that's what creates his pace, right there, how his sound defines the beginning and end of each note's "place" in the time. True, any competent musician will do this. But only a master musician will do it so distinctively! Quote
BeBop Posted December 1, 2012 Report Posted December 1, 2012 In terms of pace-relative-to-the-beat, I'd nominate Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis. A significant part of the time, I have stop and really concentrate to determine if he's on the beat, lagging or leading. Part of it is his articulation, which can seem to place a given note in a couple of spots. Another who could play with pace is Clark Terry. His articulation - again - seems to taunt the beat, rather than directly address it. Quote
mjzee Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 Dexter. He has that languid pace even on hard-charging uptempo numbers. Quote
robertoart Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) In terms of 'pace' that is more Coltrane like, Pat Martino comes to mind. It remains consistent when he plays at faster or slower tempos. So perhaps 'one paced'. Though he tends to 'jab' at the tune on the slower tempo songs. Edited December 2, 2012 by freelancer Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Posted December 2, 2012 More of the former. Whenever somebody wants to cop an explicit "Blakey feel", it seems like it's usually that mid-tempoed hard-backbeat groove. You hear somebody else do that, and it's impossible to think anything besides BLAKEY! Although, the "Blakey Latin" feel as exemplified on "A Night In Tunisia" is pretty distinctive as well. So's the "Elvin Latin" feel, but Elvin is one of the most distinctive drummers ever, regardless of what "groove" is being put forth, so... When it comes to "pace" that carries over to all tempos, I'd have to say that Dexter Gordon had one. He had a very distinctive/personal way of finding his space inside any given tempo. Part of that is the time of his tone, but it's just as much the tone of his time, how he neither overfills or underfills the space that each note occupies with his tone - although he quite often fills it to right to the breaking point! But that's what creates his pace, right there, how his sound defines the beginning and end of each note's "place" in the time. True, any competent musician will do this. But only a master musician will do it so distinctively! Thanks Jim. Oh, and I'd forgotten about Dex. Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Posted December 2, 2012 In terms of pace-relative-to-the-beat, I'd nominate Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis. A significant part of the time, I have stop and really concentrate to determine if he's on the beat, lagging or leading. Part of it is his articulation, which can seem to place a given note in a couple of spots. Another who could play with pace is Clark Terry. His articulation - again - seems to taunt the beat, rather than directly address it. The way you've linked those two is very interesting. Each is full of special 'effects', as well as this time thing. 'Effects' isn't really the right word I think, but I don't know what else to call it. Griff didn't know either He used to say that sometimes he didn't know if what Jaws was playing was even notes. Someone I read decades ago said that 'blue notes' weren't blue notes at all; they were a range of different sounds, only some of them 'music', placed where they were to form a compromise when the 'right' note would have been the wrong note. Seems to me that Jaws and Clark did this better than any other jazzmen. The way they affected time... MG Quote
JSngry Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) Someone I read decades ago said that 'blue notes' weren't blue notes at all; they were a range of different sounds, only some of them 'music', placed where they were to form a compromise when the 'right' note would have been the wrong note. Can't say that I agree with that, if only because a so-called "blue note" isn't a compromise at all - it is the right note (at that moment, at least). And that's because not everybody hears in 12 exact pitches at all times. You can break down sound any which way! I've told the story once, but I'll repeat it again. Chatting with Shelley Carroll one evening and asked him - who played more notes, Trane or Johnny Hodges? Well, of course, Trane did. Well, ok, but how many notes are there one of those long-ass glissandos that Hodges makes last forever? Well, that's an infinite number of notes. Ok then, how do you play more notes than infinite notes? Pause,grin, bust up laughing, because of course you can't, so it's time to realize that "notes" can/should be/are any sound on a infinite vibrational spectrum, and that although breaking them down into "notes" creates a certain useful functionality, it simultaneously neutralizes another, perhaps more useful functionality, and that is to make musical sounds more resemble the infinite signifying qualities of the human voice in everyday conversation. So-called "blue notes" begin to restore that natural functionality, to allow a player of an instrument to more closely convey with their instrument what they easily could - and as easily could - with their speaking voice. Not a compromise, but a liberation. The same holds true for time, of course. "Beats" "tempos" and such are useful and functional for "creating events", but are ultimately little more than mutually agreed intervals upon which other mutually agreed-upon sounds are placed in order to shape what would otherwise be silence (or at the very least, an ongoing sound event of non-mutually agreed upon sonic events). Time and pitch, two musical elements that have literally no limitations at all, and we love nothing more than to find as many limitations in them as we can, going so far as the think that the more limitations we create, the more we are "discovering".. Folly! Edited December 2, 2012 by JSngry Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Posted December 2, 2012 Well, I do agree with you, but it IS a compromise with the rules about what is acceptable/traditional/workable. Within those rules, the 'right' note, or any of the possible 'right notes' is wrong; what the musician/singer does is right - stepping outside that framework to do his groan, grunt, cough, sneeze, special Jaws-style effect or Hodges' (or Teddy Edwards') infinite number of notes - or anything else that the musician considers really right. It's a compromise, because the guy steps right back into the framework afterwards. The people who DON'T compromise are the ones who stay outside all the time; 'Fuck these rules, we're going to do our own thing and make our own rules' they say. And there might be an infinite number of alternative sets of rules in the avant garde. MG Quote
sidewinder Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 The first person who comes to mind is Andrew Hill. Must have been absolute murder being in one of his rhythmn sections ! Quote
JSngry Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 Jimmy Reed. Could have led the list! Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Posted December 2, 2012 Jimmy Reed. Could have led the list! HA Ha! Absolutely! MG Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Posted December 2, 2012 I guess two paces for Basie - flagwavers and the four to a bar, and no cheatin'. MG Quote
jeffcrom Posted December 2, 2012 Report Posted December 2, 2012 (edited) Not that he had just one "pace," but Von Freeman excelled in "the Chicago tempo" - faster than medium, but not really way up there. Edited December 2, 2012 by jeffcrom Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted December 5, 2012 Report Posted December 5, 2012 Shirley Horn "nailed" dead slow. Quote
johnlitweiler Posted December 5, 2012 Report Posted December 5, 2012 Dexter. He has that languid pace even on hard-charging uptempo numbers. yes, always behind the beat - a joy to hear Quote
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