Ed Koch passed away

[ejp626]

Ed Koch RIP

Seems no one has posted this. Obit from the Washington Post.

Was only a New Yorker a brief time, and Koch was no longer mayor by that point, so no really strong feelings about him. Probably too wedded to the real estate interests, but that is the case for most New York mayors.

Saw him once at a screening of Pelham 1-2-3 at Film Forum, where he introduced the film and talked about how the mayor in that film had a (coincidental) resemblance to himself.

[Hardbopjazz]

RIP Mr. Mayor. He was NYC.

[Dan Gould]

I grew up, more or less, with Koch as Mayor. I liked him - and now I look forward to the Times publishing an interview that was conducted with the understanding it would not be published until he died. They teased it in the obit with a mention that he still had nasty words for Mario Cuomo as a result of the 'Vote for Cuomo Not The Homo" campaign signs.

[mjzee]

He was a good mayor, started NYC's turnaround. The real turnaround had to wait for Rudy Giuliani. But Koch lifted people's spirits and gave them a "can-do" attitude; he was the necessary tonic after the disastrous Abe Beame. And he was a New Yawkuh through-and-through.

His administration was also a great patron of the arts. I remember arts in city parks bloomed under him.

[JETman]

Lots of stuff being tossed about as gospel -- ironically by people who didn't grow up in NYC.

Anyone who was there knows that Rudy did NOT turn NYC around. He was the beginning of gentrification, and the "Tokyoization" of Times Square. You couldn't have met a bigger prick on the political stage. Koch almost singlehandedly saved the city from bankruptcy. If that ain't "turnaround", I don't know what is.

[mjzee]

I was there - a lifelong New Yorker by that point. I stand by what I wrote - Giuliani really turned the city around. Koch was a great starting point, but let's not forget the ground we lost under David Dinkins. You know times were bad when NYC - the bastion of the Democratic Party - elected a Republican.

[mjzee]

A good summary by the Journal:

WSJ

[JETman]

I was there - a lifelong New Yorker by that point. I stand by what I wrote - Giuliani really turned the city around. Koch was a great starting point, but let's not forget the ground we lost under David Dinkins. You know times were bad when NYC - the bastion of the Democratic Party - elected a Republican.

Can you say "corporate jazz clubs"? If Rudy were around in the 50s and 60s, there would have been no 5 Spot, or Slugs, or Fillmore East, or countless other places.

It's a common misconception that Rudy "turned the city around". He was clearly only interested in himself. Koch had character, and he could stand up to the tough fight. Giuliani was a bully. I was there and saw it all first-hand. NYC has lost much of its character. It all hit me about 7 years ago as I was sitting in a swanky restaurant on the lower east side (home of Tompkins Square Park, mind you) paying $40 a plate for mediocre food.

I am a lifelong New Yorker to THIS point. Believe it or not, I've never seen a handgun up close. Never been shot at, never been mugged, never fell victim to any of the abuse (real or imagined) that the big city supposedly had to offer. New York didn't need Rudy. Rudy needed New York. On the other hand, NYC DID need a mayor like Ed Koch who lifted the city's morale when it was at an all-time low.

Perspective is always different from a distance.

[ejp626]

Well, one could argue that in terms of saving NYC from bankruptcy, Abe Beame truly made/accepted the hard decisions and took the political hit and Koch benefitted from that.

[JETman]

Well, one could argue that in terms of saving NYC from bankruptcy, Abe Beame truly made/accepted the hard decisions and took the political hit and Koch benefitted from that.

Continuing along those lines, one could argue that Giuliani obviously benefitted from appearing to be a major improvement over Dinkins. This was not, btw, a difficult task. Giuliani was a DA who should've stayed a DA. Don't get me started on the obvious conflict stemming from a billionaire holding such a high political office (being mayor of a city like NY may be viewed as sitting higher than Governor in most other states) now.

[AllenLowe]

Koch was NOT a good mayor - remember J51? It was the law he espoused that resulted in the destruction of middle-class housing in NYC, and led to the current creation of a one-tier city of rich people, and more rich people. He was a terrible racist, attacked African Americans in obvious and not-so-obvious ways, playing to what amounts to the NYC suburbs of Queens and Brooklyn, and their racial fears. He was a horrible guy.

http://www.nytimes.com/1982/07/22/nyregion/koch-wants-sro-hotels-barred-from-j-51-program.html

Edited February 2, 2013 by AllenLowe

[mjzee]

I am a lifelong New Yorker to THIS point. Believe it or not, I've never seen a handgun up close. Never been shot at, never been mugged, never fell victim to any of the abuse (real or imagined) that the big city supposedly had to offer.

You were never mugged? I was. You never had your apartment broken into? Many, many people in my building and my parents' building did; the only reason I didn't is that I put bars on all my windows that could be accessed by the fire escape (it looked like a prison) and reinforcements on the inside of my apartment door, including a police lock. In 1977, the battery in my parents' car was stolen about once a month. And, of course, I lived through the blackout of 1977. I saw many, many small businesses looted. The chaos of NYC during that time cannot be overstated.

[AllenLowe]

a little quote from a Village Voice blog:

"He was vilified by the gay community for his silence during the AIDS crisis. Playwright Larry Kamer wrote of Koch's legacy:

We must never forget that this man was an active participant in helping us to die, in murdering us. Call it what you will, that is what Edward Koch was, a murderer of his very own people. There is no way to avoid knowing that now. "

[JETman]

I am a lifelong New Yorker to THIS point. Believe it or not, I've never seen a handgun up close. Never been shot at, never been mugged, never fell victim to any of the abuse (real or imagined) that the big city supposedly had to offer.

You were never mugged? I was. You never had your apartment broken into? Many, many people in my building and my parents' building did; the only reason I didn't is that I put bars on all my windows that could be accessed by the fire escape (it looked like a prison) and reinforcements on the inside of my apartment door, including a police lock. In 1977, the battery in my parents' car was stolen about once a month. And, of course, I lived through the blackout of 1977. I saw many, many small businesses looted. The chaos of NYC during that time cannot be overstated.

Ignoring for the moment the slanted rantings of one Mr. Lowe (who was from Long Island, btw), where did you and your parents live? Although it's part of this board's credo, hyperbole will get you nowhere with this lifelong New Yorker.

a little quote from a Village Voice blog:

"He was vilified by the gay community for his silence during the AIDS crisis. Playwright Larry Kamer wrote of Koch's legacy:

We must never forget that this man was an active participant in helping us to die, in murdering us. Call it what you will, that is what Edward Koch was, a murderer of his very own people. There is no way to avoid knowing that now. "

OY VE. Cool out, man from suburgatory!

[mjzee]

I grew up in Brooklyn. Not the "cool, hip" parts of the Brooklyn of today (Williamsburg, Dumbo) or what I used to call the "Manhattan annex" (Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope), but in East Flatbush and Midwood. In the mid-80's and all of the '90's, I lived in Washington Heights in Manhattan.

[mjzee]

A good summary by the Post:

NY Post

[mjzee]

[JETman]

I grew up in Brooklyn. Not the "cool, hip" parts of the Brooklyn of today (Williamsburg, Dumbo) or what I used to call the "Manhattan annex" (Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope), but in East Flatbush and Midwood. In the mid-80's and all of the '90's, I lived in Washington Heights in Manhattan.

Living in "New Jack City" may explain some of your exposure to "victimhood".

[mjzee]

I grew up in Brooklyn. Not the "cool, hip" parts of the Brooklyn of today (Williamsburg, Dumbo) or what I used to call the "Manhattan annex" (Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope), but in East Flatbush and Midwood. In the mid-80's and all of the '90's, I lived in Washington Heights in Manhattan.

Living in "New Jack City" may explain some of your exposure to "victimhood".

Gee...what you call "victimhood," I just call "crime and mayhem." And where did you live, pray tell?

[JETman]

I grew up in Brooklyn. Not the "cool, hip" parts of the Brooklyn of today (Williamsburg, Dumbo) or what I used to call the "Manhattan annex" (Brooklyn Heights, Park Slope), but in East Flatbush and Midwood. In the mid-80's and all of the '90's, I lived in Washington Heights in Manhattan.

Living in "New Jack City" may explain some of your exposure to "victimhood".

Gee...what you call "victimhood," I just call "crime and mayhem." And where did you live, pray tell?

I didn't mean to marginalize your plight. However, what I always found was that keeping one's eyes and ears open was never a bad thing which helps to minimize one's exposure to "victimhood". This could be true of anyplace in these United States, not just in NYC.

I grew up in Queens, and would have never gone to Washington Heights in the 70s, 80s or 90s, no matter how much someone offered to pay me. Of course, now it's as gentrified as the rest of the city.

The fact that I still live in NY (and you don't) speaks volumes about my "entitlement" to render an opinion about the goings-on and history here.

Edited February 3, 2013 by JETman

[mjzee]

I think we're both entitled to our opinions.

[JETman]

I think we're both entitled to our opinions.

That may be so, but like I said before, perspective is always different from a distance. And, as you've demonstrated, your perspective on Giuliani is inherently (and unavoidably) slanted by your experiences. The city is, and always has been, what one makes of it. Koch was a character, no doubt, but a true opinion of him could not be formed from the suburban communities of Long Island or Westchester, or the tony/shielded communities of Northern Connecticut.

[mjzee]

I think we're both entitled to our opinions.

That may be so, but like I said before, perspective is always different from a distance. And, as you've demonstrated, your perspective on Giuliani is inherently (and unavoidably) slanted by your experiences. The city is, and always has been, what one makes of it. Koch was a character, no doubt, but a true opinion of him could not be formed from the suburban communities of Long Island or Westchester, or the tony/shielded communities of Northern Connecticut.

Both of us are at an equal distance from the years we're discussing. It's irrelevant where I live now - I lived through those years in NYC, same as you. My perspective on Giuliani is slanted by my experiences - and yours are not?

And by the way, we're both entitled to our opinions. It's not that "it may be so" - it actually is.

[JETman]

I think we're both entitled to our opinions.

That may be so, but like I said before, perspective is always different from a distance. And, as you've demonstrated, your perspective on Giuliani is inherently (and unavoidably) slanted by your experiences. The city is, and always has been, what one makes of it. Koch was a character, no doubt, but a true opinion of him could not be formed from the suburban communities of Long Island or Westchester, or the tony/shielded communities of Northern Connecticut.

Both of us are at an equal distance from the years we're discussing. It's irrelevant where I live now - I lived through those years in NYC, same as you. My perspective on Giuliani is slanted by my experiences - and yours are not?

And by the way, we're both entitled to our opinions. It's not that "it may be so" - it actually is.

I'm not going to explain myself any longer. You're mincing a turn of phrase. You know what I meant.

However, I don't know what you mean by saying that my perspective on Giuliani is slanted by my experiences. Overall, my experiences have been good with regard to NYC. The quality of my life has NEVER been dependent on who happened to be mayor on any given day. I've made it what I've wanted to make of it, and THAT was completely under my control. My observations are what they are -- take a closer look at Rudy, and you'll see what I mean. He's been glorified and deified beyond belief. People give him all the credit in the world for his actions during 9/11, for instance. He was mayor of the city at that time. Given that, really, what choice did he have in the matter? Any mayor would have done what he did. He was like a Neo-Nazi in the way he carried out most of his actions -- like a petulant child at times, banging his way through doors until they opened up and had his way. His administration was the start of taking the city away from the people and handing it on a silver platter to the upper class. This, in fact, may have been the beginning of the end for the middle class in this country. Add to that all the fake smiles and glad-handing, and what you have is an Italian-American version of W. If you want a "real" opinion of him, pay no attention to me. Look to his children, who hate his guts for what he did to their mother and to them.

Edited February 3, 2013 by JETman

[Blue Train]

a little quote from a Village Voice blog:

"He was vilified by the gay community for his silence during the AIDS crisis. Playwright Larry Kamer wrote of Koch's legacy:

We must never forget that this man was an active participant in helping us to die, in murdering us. Call it what you will, that is what Edward Koch was, a murderer of his very own people. There is no way to avoid knowing that now.    "

There is no way to get around what he did (or better put, didn't do) with regards to AIDS. Many think it's because many believed he was gay. The documentary How to Survive a Plague should be seen.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Blue Train