Robert Craft says Stravinsky had a gay lover while composing Le Sacre

[seeline]

Nope - I'm just plain tired of people speculating ad nauseam about the sexual orientation(s) of others.

Don't see how Stravinsky's relationship with Delage has anything to do with his music, frankly.

[AllenLowe]

well, by that rationale why do we do, read, or speculate about anything? Life is not all utilitarian.

[Larry Kart]

Nope - I'm just plain tired of people speculating ad nauseam about the sexual orientation(s) of others.

Don't see how Stravinsky's relationship with Delage has anything to do with his music, frankly.

Craft wasn't speculating; he was stating what he believed to be fact, and he would seem to have been in a good position to know and/or determine that, as a close associate, or hanger on if you will, of IS and his widow Vera for some 60 years. As for the effect of the alleged relationship on IS's music, I'm not saying there was one. What I am interested in is Stravinsky the person -- always have been -- and this, given everything else one already knows about him (and thanks to Craft and many others, including Vera and IS himself, one probably knows as much about him as one does about any major artist of the 20th Century). That said, this to me was news -- in part, for example, given IS's previous on-the-record remarks about how off-putting he found the sexual ambience of Diaghlev and his circle and its associated power plays. I remember in particular a dismissive remark about Markevitch as a composer that implied that Markevitch was a Diaghlev favorite for a time only for non-musical reasons.

[Bigshot]

I heard that Mendelssohn had a big red boil on his neck, and Schubert liked young ladies to paddle his bottom. All of this informs my understanding of their music!

[AllenLowe]

well, if you think that those are the equivalent of sexual orientation, it's back to health class.

[Larry Kart]

I heard that Mendelssohn had a big red boil on his neck, and Schubert liked young ladies to paddle his bottom. All of this informs my understanding of their music!

Yes, but Mendelssohn, Schubert, Stravinsky, et al., were people as well as great musicians, and (on a selective basis, depending on one's own nature, knowledge, general sense of things) very interesting people. It's not necessary then, or so I think, to take information about their lives solely in terms of whether or not it informs one's understanding of their music. To draw the line indelibly on an "either it informs their music or I don't want to hear about it" basis seems to me to perhaps spring from an understandable distaste for mere gossip or cheesily romantic interpretations, but the answer to that, I think, is to not traffic in mere gossip or indulge in cheesily romantic interpretations, not to place oneself and "the music itself" in some sort of mutual isolation chamber.

To shift the ground some, I for one will never cease to be interested in what I feel to be the divide (or if you prefer, the relationship between) the frequently sublime music of Artie Shaw and the evidence that Shaw the man was a narcissistic jerk in the very top class. Does my sense of the latter damage or drastically alter my sense of the former? No. But I am interested in human behavior as such, and that an artist of the kind I feel Shaw at his best was could also be the sort of man that I think he was seems to me to say something interesting about the nature and range of human possibility.

[Bigshot]

I'm sure people feel exactly the same about Brad Pitt and Jennifer Lopez when they read the Enquirer.

[Larry Kart]

The young Maurice Delage:

http://www.last.fm/music/Maurice+Delage/+images/85996315

As for "I'm sure people feel exactly the same" about Brad and Jennifer, why of course, you've nailed it!

[seeline]

Funny how nobody is talking about what other things in life (besides sexual orientation and relationships) might have been important to Stravinsky, Delage - or anyone else, for that matter.

Personally, i think Delage's interest in South and East Asian music is intriguing; ditto for Stravinsky's interest in Russian folk songs and Orthodox liturgy. If I knew that gardening or being a master of cuisine was important to either, I also think that would be more interesting than a litany of who slept with whom. Add to that the fact that Robert Craft's claims can't be substantiated by anyone - since all of the people in question are dead, it's all rumor.

And, as Bigshot said, it's all about as interesting as H'wood gossip or the endless speculation re. Queen Latifah's sexuality. I don't care one way or the other if an entertainer or musician chooses to keep their private life private. What they do is work, and they deserve to have some off-the-clock time of their own, though our celebrity-obsessed culture hates that. (cf. Perez Hilton and all the rest of the rumor mongers.)

****

fwiw, Dawn Upshaw recorded Delage's "Quatre poemes hindous" on her 1991 album The Girl with Orange Lips - definitely worth checking out.

Edited June 25, 2013 by seeline

[Larry Kart]

Funny how nobody is talking about what other things in life (besides sexual orientation and relationships) might have been important to Stravinsky, Delage - or anyone else, for that matter.

Personally, i think Delage's interest in South and East Asian music is intriguing; ditto for Stravinsky's interest in Russian folk songs and Orthodox liturgy. If I knew that gardening or being a master of cuisine was important to either, I also think that would be more interesting than a litany of who slept with whom. Add to that the fact that Robert Craft's claims can't be substantiated by anyone - since all of the people in question are dead, it's all rumor.

And, as Bigshot said, it's all about as interesting as H'wood gossip or the endless speculation re. Queen Latifah's sexuality. I don't care one way or the other if an entertainer or musician chooses to keep their private life private. What they do is work, and they deserve to have some off-the-clock time of their own, though our celebrity-obsessed culture hates that. (cf. Perez Hilton and all the rest of the rumor mongers.)

****

fwiw, Dawn Upshaw recorded Delage's "Quatre poemes hindous" on her 1991 album The Girl with Orange Lips - definitely worth checking out.

Yes, but if you're emotionally involved with someone who has, as Delage did, an "interest in South and East Asian music" or any other sort of novel musical interests/ideas ... need I say more? Why must we build these walls, insist that such things are merely "a litany of who slept with whom"? As for Craft's claims being impossible to substantiate at this date, of course, but as I said above, he was a part of the Stravinsky household for some 60 years and maintained a close relationship to IS's widow Vera, which would seem to have given him a pretty reasonable chance to know a whole lot of things. OTOH, as Chuck said, Craft seems to have a lot of mirrors.

BTW, I have that Upshaw disc. I'll have to check out those Delage pieces.

[seeline]

No sense trying to debate this... for me, sexual orientation is not the most important thing here, and Craft is controversial. At this point, what he claims to be revealing makes me yawn.

[king ubu]

So gardening is important but sexual orientation is not? Frankly, the mind boggles.

I'm entirely with Larry here. I also cringe about all the Wagner jubilee activities where they totally ignore his blatant antisemitism (he wrote that one essay in Zurich and he's being celebrated all over here, but not a word one hears). It's all part of the big picture -

[Big Beat Steve]

So gardening is important but sexual orientation is not? Frankly, the mind boggles.

I'm entirely with Larry here.

Indeed. 21st century puritanism, tabooism and P.C. rear their heads, you know ..

I also cringe about all the Wagner jubilee activities where they totally ignore his blatant antisemitism (he wrote that one essay in Zurich and he's being celebrated all over here, but not a word one hears). It's all part of the big picture -

As for Wagner, his antisemitism is common knowledge by now, isn't it?

And indeed the other day there was a brief feature about him and - lo and behold - his HOMOSEXUALITY in the cultural section of the local paper here. A subject that seems to have been investigated before, BTW:

http://www.amazon.de/Richard-Wagner-Homosexualit%C3%A4t-Walter-Fuchs/dp/3845720182

Which seems to bring things full circle. Or does Wagner all of a sudden rate among those who need to be hushed over in this part of their private lives too? Him who has already been dissected in a zillion biographies and historical essays?

Setting up more do's and dont's of what "one" is supposed to write about, thereby preselecting what the audience is to be informed about?

After all nobody is FORCED to read about those things that are of no interest or concern to them anyway. (I for one couldn't care less about these topics but I cannot see why they should not be discussed or analyzed)

Public persons (personalities) are public persons after all. Always have been. The price (one of them) of success.

[king ubu]

Oh, sure it's common knowledge, but I still get the impression - and heavily so! - that his fanboys are in full denial mode (and that includes with one or two notable exceptions all his heirs and profiteers).

[seeline]

I'm not at all sure how a relatively brief relationship with another man affects the tenor of Stravinsky's work over a lifetime.

Wagner's antisemitism is - imo - very different, in that it truly did affect his work and much more.

I'm baffled as to why someone's sexual orientation and/or sexual history are made out to be so important - my point above is that there have to be lots of other things that are important to any given individual, yet they're far less gossip-worthy.

But this is going around in circles.

[Larry Kart]

I'm not at all sure how a relatively brief relationship with another man affects the tenor of Stravinsky's work over a lifetime.

I didn't say that it affected "the tenor of Stravinsky's work over a lifetime," nor did Craft FWTW. The relationship, if such there was, took place while IS was writing "Le Sacre."

Among the points of possible interest here to me is what light this relationship, if such there was, might throw on what we know was IS's certainly crucial for some time and intermittently troubled (to say the least) relationship with Diaghlev and his circle, in which homosexual favorites and favoritism abounded. I mentioned above IS's disparaging latter-day remarks about Markevitch and Diaghlev in that regard, which is not to say that IS was right about the facts there, only that he made those remarks and wanted to make them, because they were published between covers in a book that had his name on it.

In any case, it's fairly clear that IS had strong feelings about that aspect of life around Diaghlev, and prior to this it has commonly been assumed that this was because IS disliked favoritism per se and that he also was, in temperament and behavior, far from inclined toward Diaghlev's ways of life, so to speak. That he was, according to Craft's account, involved with Delage at the time he was writing "Le Sacre" suggests, among other possibilities that previously IS did not always keep Diaghlev at arms' length (Craft suggests this was the case), and, more important, that in the wake of whatever may have happened between IS and Delage, what I assume was IS's basically heterosexual temperament and his undoubted strong desire to assert his independence and individuality in the face of any controlling figure like Diaghlev (and Diaghlev was in the top class there by all accounts) began to come to the fore.

A footnote and some speculation: If Diaghlev did come on to IS, whatever the results, he probably did so in a controlling, implicitly master-disciple manner because that was his pattern. OTOH, if there was anything between Delage and IS, my guess is that it either was a relationship between relative equals emotionally or one in which Delage looked up to IS. If so, that could have given some necessary emotional fuel to IS in his continuing struggles to assert himself. In that regard, see the anecdote of the time in which IS reacts with rage when his mother stated to her son that in her view he was in thrall musically to Scriabin.

[seeline]

Diaghilev was from a wealthy background and from all that I know about him, didn't hesitate to make people feel that they needed to "know their place" (as the English used to say).

Stravinsky wasn't the only person involved in the creation of The Rite... - much of it (ideas, plot, visual stuff) came from Nicholas Roerich, although apparently Stravinsky denied that later in his life, claiming that The Rite... was his alone. Roerich and others (including Stravinsky) came from a background of various Russian art and political movements that had a huge influence on visual, literary, musical (etc ) production by lots of people - not just Stravinsky. (Reliance on folklore, belief in the Asiatic - "Scythian" - origins of ancient Russian culture, attempts to recreate Slavic paganism, pan-Slavic political/cultural movements and more).

OK, perhaps Stravinsky was hypocritical in his pronouncements about the Ballets Russes circle, but the kind of hothouse atmosphere that flourished there might well have been deemed unpleasant by many gay people (though I don't know; it's just conjecture).

I think Diaghilev's personality - and Stravinksy's - probably had as much, or more, to do with what Stravinsky said about him than Craft might credit, since he seems so intent on talking about homosexuality (and who Stravinsky was sleeping with) in that article.

I noticed that Craft also talks about Stravinsky's friendship with Ravel and other composers (many of them gay) in that same article. Perhaps these friendships - and exchanges of ideas that were likely a part of the milieu - are more important than Stravinsky's alleged liason with Delage? I honestly don't know, but I'm willing to bet that that's the case. (if Stravinsky had had a long-term relationship with Delage, things might be a bit different - especially per shared interests and ideas.)

I noticed this - which Craft says is an aside (along with the other material re. Delage) in the article - Upshaw recorded them on the disc I mentioned in a previous post:

[Delage] presented Stravinsky with an anthology of Japanese poetry from which he took the texts for Three Japanese Lyrics. Delage translated the lyrics into French, placing the Cyrillic and Japanese above the notes of the vocal part of the piano score (which he copied). The Frenchman also taught Stravinsky some Japanese characters, and in the “Danse Sacrale” sketchbook Stravinsky experimented with writing Japanese in order to form a logo for himself in vertical form. This was evidently achieved in the late spring of 1913, though the first two and possibly three songs were composed in January of that year.

Edited June 25, 2013 by seeline

[Larry Kart]

I think Diaghilev's personality - and Stravinksy's - probably had as much, or more, to do with what Stravinsky said about him than Craft might credit, since he seems so intent on talking about homosexuality (and who Stravinsky was sleeping with) in that article.

What I said in my previous post (or so I thought) was that IS's reaction to Diaghilev's personality had a great deal to do with what IS thought and said about him. What I also said or implied is that D's patterns of favoritism toward his emotional satellites was an important and often off-putting manifestation of D's personality in IS's eyes. That there might have been some sexual aspect to this on one or both sides invalidates that speculation?

BTW, I did once write, modifying a remark by the late Gilbert Sorrentino, that "people always think that artists have complicated personal reasons for doing what they do, when in fact that have complicated artistic reasons," so I'm not necessarily an agent from the enemy camp. But I think that in this particular case there is no enemy camp, no attempt being made (certainly not by me, I believe, and perhaps not by Craft) to smear IS or to explain (or explain away) any of his music as a direct byproduct of a homosexual relationship. Why I do think the relationship with Delage, if true, might be interesting in regard to IS's personality and to some of his behavior I explained above several times over. Don't see how this is Pitt and Lopez at the check-out counter stuff.

[seeline]

I just don't know that it's that important, overall.

[ejp626]

BTW, I did once write, modifying a remark by the late Gilbert Sorrentino, that "people always think that artists have complicated personal reasons for doing what they do, when in fact that have complicated artistic reasons,"

Though I think it may be just as likely that they proclaim they have an artistic or intellectual reason for doing something, and in fact that is just as likely that at root it is based in personal relations or animus towards someone else. They may not even want to admit this to themselves.

I've seen this dozens of times at academic conferences where what appears to be a theoretical disagreement is really driven by personal dislike.

[seeline]

BTW, I did once write, modifying a remark by the late Gilbert Sorrentino, that "people always think that artists have complicated personal reasons for doing what they do, when in fact that have complicated artistic reasons,"

Though I think it may be just as likely that they proclaim they have an artistic or intellectual reason for doing something, and in fact that is just as likely that at root it is based in personal relations or animus towards someone else. They may not even want to admit this to themselves.

I've seen this dozens of times at academic conferences where what appears to be a theoretical disagreement is really driven by personal dislike.

ejp - yes.

Edited June 25, 2013 by seeline

[gvopedz]

I've seen this dozens of times at academic conferences where what appears to be a theoretical disagreement is really driven by personal dislike.

I agree with your comment about academic conferences - I witnessed the same thing many times.

[seeline]

The recent documentary on the Ballet Russes is available for streaming on Netflix, in case anyone's interested...

As far as influences on a partner's work, I was thinking about people like Samuel Barber and Giancarlo Menotti, Robert Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns, John Cage and Merce Cunningham, etc.

Also, I think it would have been pretty much impossible to have been part of the Parisian arts scene during the early 20th c. and not have been around/been friends with LGBT folks. (Like Cocteau, who seems to have known everyone who was anyone.)

Edited June 26, 2013 by seeline

[sgcim]

While we're talking about composers' kinks and prejudices, I'm reading "Self Portrait of Percy Grainger", a compilation of all his private writings, and this man had enough to fill four books- let alone one.

Although he wasn't gay, his appetite for flagellation seemed to be inexhaustible. In the Grainger Museum in Melbourne, there are photos on display of him with hundreds of whip scars on his body, along with his actual collection of whips.

He also has a 25 item list of suggestions of things that should be done to make the world safe for Nordics near and far.

[seeline]

Some other scholars' comments in the NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/18/arts/music/doubts-greet-claims-about-stravinskys-sexuality.html?hp&_r=0

Doubts are, as they say, cast on Craft's assertions... personally, I'm still waiting for documentation. (not hearsay.)