Helen Forrest on "All the Things You Are"

[Larry Kart]

One of the great Swing Era vocal recordings IMO. Nothing flashy or "jazzy," but the deep warmth of Forrest's voice and the way she subtly personalizes the song by easing into or extending certain notes and emphasizing key words (e.g. "things" the first time around) is magical:

[JSngry]

Another song that had a verse with which I was pretty much totally unfamiliar (but is really the original lyrics to it, and was it really originally staged as a duet?.

[Larry Kart]

I've heard the verse before, but it's still a shock here when the first two singers peel off to reveal the two who will sing the chorus. Jphn McGlinn, who died at age 55, was a great loss; I was stunned when he heard him early on in his career conduct the Gershwins' almost forgotten musicals "Primrose" and "Pardon My English" in concert versions in Washington, D.C.

P.S. I knew that McGlinn could be a difficult person, but this article was an eye-opener:

http://articles.philly.com/2009-09-22/news/25267639_1_show-boat-broadway-composers-theater

[JSngry]

I have no idea who John McGlinn was, and the whole thing seems like something I may not be able to do more than tread lightly into, but that one clip fascinated me as far as it being "All The Things You Are" in a way I've never heard it, so...who was he, and what is that?

[Larry Kart]

I have no idea who John McGlinn was, and the whole thing seems like something I may not be able to do more than tread lightly into, but that one clip fascinated me as far as it being "All The Things You Are" in a way I've never heard it, so...who was he, and what is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McGlinn

Don't know what you mean by "what is that?" I think it's just the song as Kern wrote it to be performed originally.

As for McGlinn, he was among the first and best in the movement to treat vintage Broadway show music with the care and accuracy -- in terms of texts and performance styles -- that some feel it deserves. Most of the vintage scores that had any continuing life at all had been freely modified and "modernized" over the years by layers and layers of adapters, all in the name of momentary show biz necessity. If the drive to return to original texts and styles sounds like a recipe for mustiness, that's not what it was like in McGlinn's hands (see his "Show Boat" recording for a good example -- and that was among the scores that had been most mauled about over the years).

So what happened? Well, such recordings were very expensive to produce, the number of such scores that would sell in sufficient quantities was limited, and McGliinn by several accounts was a very moody, edgy guy who alienated a lot of people, record industry executives included. So Finis. But boy could McGlinn get it right.

A useful point of comparison would be the recordings made in that era for CBS-Sony by Michael Tilson-Thomas of two vintage Gershwin musicals, "Of Thee I Sing" and "Let 'Em Eat Cake." As I wrote in my book:

'Gershwin’s close associate, Kay Swift--who, at age ninety, played an advisory role in these recordings--has stated that Gershwin “never had a conductor like Tilson-Thomas. Everything that’s exciting in the music, he brings it right out.” But Tilson-Thomas’s brand of excitement veers dangerously close to artificial peppiness at times, as though the conductor felt that the music needed an extra dose of pizzazz in order to make it in today’s marketplace. Tilson-Thomas takes much of Of Thee I Sing too quickly (faster doesn’t always mean funnier), while exposed instrumental lines that have humorous connotations often are exaggerated to the point of caricature. And the same holds true for the singers--not only because some of them have voices that are a bit off for their parts, but also because, in the tricky area of characterization, they seem to have taken their cue from Tilson-Thomas’s whiz-bang approach.'

[JSngry]

I have no idea who John McGlinn was, and the whole thing seems like something I may not be able to do more than tread lightly into, but that one clip fascinated me as far as it being "All The Things You Are" in a way I've never heard it, so...who was he, and what is that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McGlinn

Don't know what you mean by "what is that?" I think it's just the song as Kern wrote it to be performed originally.

Yeah, that's more or less what I meant...although add on to it the wondering if this was a "concert reading" of the original score...obviously(?) not a staging of the show itself, singing people would also be moving people, correct?...and is that the original orchestration, everything? That transition between verse and chorus is blowing me away, using as it does the opening interval of the familiar melody to entirely different harmonic ends...I've always played that tune thinking of it as "major", but damn, the way that thing sets it up, the "minor" element is subliminally there from jump. Who knew? Well obviously some people did, but, just sayin'.

This McGlinn, did he do a big lot of these things on record, or can I check it mostly all out without having to expend a lot of money and not too much psychic energy into "Broadway" and all that? Because I'll be honest with you, that All The Things You Are, that one right there, that's kind of a mindfuck for me, in the good way. Not the trappings, which would have made me run like hell up until, maybe...last night(?) - and still would if that was all there was there, but just how that song gets stretched out (I know, it's really been "compressed" over the years, but I'm talking about how my ears hear it now) from a standard into a fucking OPUS. Everybody's altered the chages and all that over the years, and that's excellent (sometimes), but this ain't about changes (although I'm gonna run back to my oldest non-jazz fakebook and have another look at some of those changes, the ones that are distinctly non-ii-V in character, I used to think they were just "old fashioned", and in jazz terms, yes, but as compositional tools, hmmm....), this is about composition, a larger form for the song than just AABA. Hell, the melody of the verse runs as a counter-melody, etc., this is no bullshit, this is well-though out exposition, development, etc. All in "popular song" arena, of course, but NOT designed for Hit Appeal or Blowing Vehicle...one integrated whole thing. Beautiful.

Jerome Kern...not to be taken lightly, right?

[Larry Kart]

If you want to go whole hog, there's this, which is quite a bargain, six whole shows on 13 discs for $49.95:

http://www.amazon.com/Broadway-Musicals-John-Mcglinn/dp/B002NZOLFA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1395700190&sr=1-1&keywords=john+mcglinn

And there are lots of individual McGlinn collections of show music as well.

If I had to pick one, I'd probably go for his "Showboat," which can be found on Amazon used for less than $10 I think.

As for that video of "All the Things You Are," I can't swear that it's from the original show or is a special concert version, but in the original show , "Very Warm for May" (1939), it was performed by two couples.

[JSngry]

50 bucks to dive in when/where ever is a 1-Click no-brainer right now, in the immediate aftermath of seeing that . About $3.50/disc, DUH!. Thanks!

And that, that is the original orchestration as well? Very nifty, if so.

[Larry Kart]

50 bucks to dive in when/where ever is a 1-Click no-brainer right now, in the immediate aftermath of seeing that . About $3.50/disc, DUH!. Thanks!

And that, that is the original orchestration as well? Very nifty, if so.

Almost it certain it would be the original orchestration -- McGlinn was committed on that front. If so, it was by Robert Russell Bennett.

More info:

http://zvbxrpl.blogspot.com/2010/01/that-moment-divine.html

[JSngry]

All I know about Robert Russell Bennett is that Jo Stafford thought he was corny and wasn't afraid to say so, although very politely.

On the live bootleg clip posted on that link, I could see where she could think that, because the singers aren't as good as they need to be to be inside that score. Delicate balances, and all that.

[Larry Kart]

A McGlinn performance of ATTYA is on his album "Broadway Showstoppers," which can be found used on Amazon.

Bennett and Stafford inhabited fairly different genres -- Broadway show music and Swing Era big bands. The former probably could seem rather corny from the vantage point of the latter. But Bennett within his genre was widely regarded as a sophisticated customer. He also orchestrated Richard Rodgers' score for "Victory at Sea."

[medjuck]

If you want to go whole hog, there's this, which is quite a bargain, six whole shows on 13 discs for $49.95:

http://www.amazon.com/Broadway-Musicals-John-Mcglinn/dp/B002NZOLFA/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1395700190&sr=1-1&keywords=john+mcglinn

And there are lots of individual McGlinn collections of show music as well.

If I had to pick one, I'd probably go for his "Showboat," which can be found on Amazon used for less than $10 I think.

As for that video of "All the Things You Are," I can't swear that it's from the original show or is a special concert version, but in the original show , "Very Warm for May" (1939), it was performed by two couples.

The EMI recoding of Showboat is indeed terrific. 3 cds and a large booklet with every known piece ever written for Showboat including the songs written for the 1936 film version with Irene Dunn, Helen Morgan and Paul Robinson. (I recommend that highly too.)

Does anyone know if the McGlinn version was used in the last big Broadway production produced by the notorious Garth Drabinsky? Both were controversial because, as with the original, the show opens with the chorus singing "Niggers all work on de Mississippi".

Edited March 25, 2014 by medjuck

[Larry Kart]

Think I saw the Drabinsky version on the road in Chicago. If so, it was not the McGlinn version.

[gmonahan]

Getting back to Larry's original post, Helen Forrest was a great band singer. I thought Jasmine did a fairly good job with the Helen Forrest/Artie Shaw recordings (missing from the largely instrumental-only Mosaic set).

gregmo

[crisp]

A McGlinn performance of ATTYA is on his album "Broadway Showstoppers," which can be found used on Amazon.

In fact that disc is in the bargain box you linked to. It's a great CD, the highlight for me being Some Girl is On Your Mind also from Very Warm for May. The Jerome Kern Treasury is also in that box -- superb.

This is a fascinating thread btw. I've long been a fan of McGlinn's work but knew nothing about the man and between yours and JSngry's posts I'm learning a great deal. Thanks.

[Big Beat Steve]

Getting back to "All The Things You Are", the original subject of this topic - I assume the Youtube clip of the Shaw/Forrest recording is of the RCA studio recording, not of some soundie? (The clip does not display here - GEMA/Youtube mechanical copyright hassle again ... ). I've just listened to that RCA recording and while no doubt the singing is great I am surprised at what is included from the original score of this song and what isn't. Did I totally miss something or is the verse of that song (mentioned in another post above) NOT included there either or does the Youtube clip show another version after all?

Having first come across this tune in the Diz/Bird version of 1945, I've long been intrigued by the Clifford Brown/Gigi Gryce 1953 Paris recording of that song, particularly the introduction by Jimmy Gourley on guitar which (according to Alun Morgan's liner notes to the 70s UK Vogue reissue of those recordings) "is the seldom played verse which, as composer-musicologist Alec Wilder has pointed out, seems to have little to do with the chorus; (it) sounds as if it had been written at another time or even originally intended for another song."

Has this verse ever been recorded in a JAZZ setting at a pace more like the original song (the Brown/Gryce version of course is much more uptempo, and very smartly done IMO)?

Edited March 25, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[medjuck]

I have a vague memory of "All the Things You Are" being chosen as the most beautiful song of the 20th Century (or something like that) a couple of decades ago. I can't remember by whom. I tried googling it and it does have an interesting Wikipedia entry but nothing about what I remember.

[gmonahan]

Getting back to "All The Things You Are", the original subject of this topic - I assume the Youtube clip of the Shaw/Forrest recording is of the RCA studio recording, not of some soundie? (The clip does not display here - GEMA/Youtube mechanical copyright hassle again ... ). I've just listened to that RCA recording and while no doubt the singing is great I am surprised at what is included from the original score of this song and what isn't. Did I totally miss something or is the verse of that song (mentioned in another post above) NOT included there either or does the Youtube clip show another version after all?

Having first come across this tune in the Diz/Bird version of 1945, I've long been intrigued by the Clifford Brown/Gigi Gryce 1953 Paris recording of that song, particularly the introduction by Jimmy Gourley on guitar which (according to Alun Morgan's liner notes to the 70s UK Vogue reissue of those recordings) "is the seldom played verse which, as composer-musicologist Alec Wilder has pointed out, seems to have little to do with the chorus; (it) sounds as if it had been written at another time or even originally intended for another song."

Has this verse ever been recorded in a JAZZ setting at a pace more like the original song (the Brown/Gryce version of course is much more uptempo, and very smartly done IMO)?

Steve, the verse is sung in the McGlinn video posted by Jim Sangry, not the Shaw version posted by Larry, which is indeed the studio cut (chorus only) with some visual stills thrown in for youtube.

gregmo

[Big Beat Steve]

OK, Greg, thanks - so I did misunderstand Jim's initial comment. I have worked my way halfway through the McGlinn video (and did grasp what I understood to be the SUNG verse) because I was sort of fascinated by what I read in the other posts about his "period-correct" approach to those Broadway tunes. But I must admit - I have huge problems digesting operatic aria-like singing in such settings where I'd expect something a bit looser anyway, given the source material and the purpose it seemed to have served. I realize it's me who am missing out on it (and maybe I am missing the point entirely, being unduly influenced by movie versions of Broadway musicals) but that's just the way it is ....

But hence my question about recordings of the verse in a JAZZ setting.

[Larry Kart]

OK, Greg, thanks - so I did misunderstand Jim's initial comment. I have worked my way halfway through the McGlinn video (and did grasp what I understood to be the SUNG verse) because I was sort of fascinated by what I read in the other posts about his "period-correct" approach to those Broadway tunes. But I must admit - I have huge problems digesting operatic aria-like singing in such settings where I'd expect something a bit looser anyway, given the source material and the purpose it seemed to have served. I realize it's me who am missing out on it (and maybe I am missing the point entirely, being unduly influenced by movie versions of Broadway musicals) but that's just the way it is ....

But hence my question about recordings of the verse in a JAZZ setting.

I hear what you're saying about operatic aria-like singing (actually operetta-like singing might be more accurate, and even then), but there's a difference, I've found, between the likes of Nelson Eddy and Jeannette McDonald (a.k.a. "The Iron Butterfly") and a good many less oppressive, lighter-toned in both vocal and emotional-dramatic style vintage Broadway and film musical singers. The Smithsonian back in the '70s and '80s compiled some nice LP sets of vintage original-cast show recordings, and they were a revelation for me. Jazz is my first and last love, but it's also a matter of different genres with different demands, not just a matter of "square" versus "hip" or a simple "progression" in singing styles, from mannered to loose and swinging. Think, perhaps, in the arguably different realm of film acting, of a figure like William Powell. Both in physical demeanor and speech one could think of Powell as rather stylized compared to, say, the latter-day "naturalism" of a Brando or a James Dean, but Powell's stylization is artful in its own way and fit his roles perfectly, no? One doesn't disparage Powell in "The Thin Man" because of Dean in "Rebel Without a Cause."

[Big Beat Steve]

I fully see your point, Larry, and actually, I like William Powell and his "Thin Men" a LOT (just like I enjoy Marlon Brando or James Dean for entirely different reasons).

BTW, to stay within a broadly contemporary framework of acting, maybe you rather might like to juxtapose William Powell and John Garfield? But the results would be the same. Different purposes, different targets, different means.

Like I said, in the end it likely is my fault if I fail to appreciate the singing (more operetta-like - yes, you are right) on that particular clip above as an introduction to how the verse of ATTYA is supposed to sound. I'd just have to wade through a lot of stilted and stylized vocalisms there that just happen to get in my way ... But that's only me and highly subjective and I definitely would not want to start a debate on "hip" vs "square" singing (or, to use different terms), between "executing" and "interpreting" a song. That's a different (and very probably pointless) matter altogether because tastes just do differ and the "hip vs square" criteria really are beside the point and not applicable ...

I really was just trying to explain why I had wondered about other recordings of the verse of that song that might be more ... well ... "accessible" from my angle.

Thanks for your patience ...

Edited March 26, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

I think it's always about neither over-filling the space nor under-filling it, literally as well as metaphysically,, which of course then becomes about understanding what the space is, and if need be, constructing another one which one can best fill appropriately. But that's the difference between interpreting and interpreting, although, really, both are always on the table, always.

What gets me about this original is that the "space" of All The Things You Are is now considerably....roomier than it is when played as just a "song". It's one of the most fascinating harmonic sequences to blow on, as there are lord knows how many ways to alter/reharmonize it so that it still starts and ends in the same places but goes so many different places on along the way. But this, this is not about that. Playing with the harmony of the song is akin to buying a building and then playing with different ways to redesign the space, move the walls around,, add a second story, see what we can do with the basement, etc. This other way, this originally designed way opens up the world of, oh, this is a nice building, real nice. So let's buy some more land around it and make it a grounds, not just a building.

Free improvisation, classical theme & development, this idea of a song being more than just a repetitive AABA structure, these are all the same basic impulse to me, the need to not be the proverbial repeater pencil, not just in vocabulary, but in structures as well. Granted, the specifics will vary from time/place to time/place, but inevitably, whenever faced with contraction, eventually the urge to expansion arises. And eventually gets countered...and then again, and again.

But ok, "jazz musicians" who still play songs and changes, here's your NEW "All the Things You Are", there's a lot more "there" now. So...do something with THAT, blow on THAT, ok?

Form - still The Final Frontier.

[Larry Kart]

Definitive word on that McGlinn-conducted You Tube "All the Things your Are," from Miles Kruger's liner notes to "Broadway Shopstoppers" (Angel) which I just picked up:

"Performed in the musical as a double duet with chorus during a rehearsal in the show-within-a-show [in "Very Warm for May"], the song is here recorded in its original form for the very first time, with its gracious Robert Russell Bennett orchestrations."