Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Just went back to look at the replay, I was incorrect about the zone. It was man coverage across the board. And this, from Grantland: "Before Sunday, NFL teams had thrown the ball 108 times on the opposing team’s 1-yard line this season. Those passes had produced 66 touchdowns (a success rate of 61.1 percent, down to 59.5 percent when you throw in three sacks) and zero interceptions. The 223 running plays had generated 129 touchdowns (a 57.8 percent success rate) and two turnovers on fumbles." Which clearly backs up those who say you NEVER throw the ball from there! Oh no, never ever ever! Too dangerous! It's suicide!!! Edited February 3, 2015 by Scott Dolan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/0ap3000000467856/Playbook-Why-did-Carroll-choose-to-pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 And I don't see Bill Walsh calling that play on the goal line, or under those circumstances. And BTW, just to address this nonsense: "We have standard passes to throw against a goalline defense. Too often people try to go in there and butt heads with good linebackers on the goal line. Too often they don't make it. If we get inside that 5-yard line, half the time we are going to throw the ball. Now, if you're marching through somebody, you can just close your eyes and hand the ball off But when it's very competitive, that goal-line pass is vital. So we have a series of those. We never call them anywhere else on the field." - Bill Walsh http://www.westcoastoffense.com/bill%20walsh%20article%201.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I love that in the Information Age people are still confusingly using the term "common sense" in place of "my opinion". So YOU are saying it's NOT common sense to defend against the most likely play the Seahawks would and should call?? That's exactly what the Patriots did. There's nothing "common" or "sensible" about putting a goal line package out against a three WR set, no. In 36 years of watching the game I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. Finally! Sanity in a sea of madness.https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/02/02/analysis-notebook-super-bowl-xlix-that-play/ But in that article do you see some disconnect between these two passages? 1) The first and most obvious thing to note is that you can see exactly why Seattle wanted to pass the ball. Even though they had three wide receivers on the field, the Patriots were almost completely selling out to stop the run. [Notice that "almost."] 2) [The Patriots] ran this play in practice specifically to prepare their defensive backs for it. Nothing in football gives you an edge like knowing exactly what is coming. People have called this play a great read by Butler, but if you take a look at his reactions, he is playing nothing else. He knew this play was coming and that’s all he was planning to defend. [Notice the phrase " knowing exactly what is coming,"] So the two Patriots who are not selling out to stop the run [browner and Butler] just happen to be the two guys who are defending against the play the Seahawks actually ran. The Seahawks got out thunk, I think. No, there is no disconnect between the two passages you highlighted. The Seahawks ran that play three times during the regular season. Belichick and his staff took note of it and learned specifically how to defend it. That what great coaches do. And the "almost" means that you had seven up the middle (six down linemen and a linebacker) selling out to stop the run, and four defensive backs in zone coverage behind them. Not just Browner and Butler as you incorrectly assume. OK -- so two of the four Patriots who were not "selling out to stop the run" happened to be the two who together made that decisive play. And the Seahawks still didn't get out thunk? As you say, " Belichick and his staff took note of [that play] and learned specifically how to defend it." And Carroll and his staff were not one step behind them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 All offensive plays should just work, is that what you're saying, Larry? You can learn to defend any play, but you still have to out execute your opponent. Coaches learn plays and recognize patterns for every opponent they play. That has been true longer than I've been alive. Why do you think they study game film for hours on end every week? They didn't get "out thunk", they simply got outplayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homefromtheforest Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Clearly it seems you're the only on one this thread whose opinion is fact judging by how bent out of shape you are getting over other people's viewpoints that go against yours and the select internet articles you choose to present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I just hate people who know little about the nuts and bolts of the game claiming they are some sort of play-calling guru. And criticizing someone who has decades of experience, and championship titles at two different levels, because they don't "get" what happened. Oddly enough, you, less than anyone else who's chimed in has explained your position intelligently. You just keep going with short, dopey comments. I have gone out of my way and explained my take from several angles, all of which you simply dismiss without clarification other than you "thought" it was a bad call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) And can we stop this whole "Lynch was money in the bank from the one yard line" bullshit? Lynch carried the ball five times this past season from the one yard line. He scored once. Once. Yet, passes from the one resulted in TDs 60% of the time across the NFL. I take it percentages weren't a strong point for many of you. Edited February 3, 2015 by Scott Dolan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Lynch carried the ball five times this past season from the one yard line. He scored once. How many, if any, of those carries were within the same possession? ... passes from the one resulted in TDs 60% of the time across the NFL. What was Seattle's % for 2015? What % of this 60% was against New England? What percentage of this 60% was in the 4th quarter with less than 2:00 on the clock? What percentage of that % of this 60% was against New England in the 4th quarter with less than 2:00 on the clock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 As though it matters. You want indoor/outdoor, turf/grass, sunny/cloudy/windy/rainy/snow, right-handed/left-handed, 1pm/4pm, Monday/Thursday/Saturday/Sunday and elevation splits as well? As long as the strength of your argument rest solely on "Jim thought they should have run the ball", there's really nothing left of the conversation. They called a play, it was a fine play package for package, they didn't execute it as well as New England defended it. The End All the teeth gnashing is due strictly to the result. If it had been completed for a touchdown, the play call itself wouldn't even be a topic of conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 More fun with stats, perhaps...how does that 60% success rate of passes from the one break down among teams with roughly the same offensive rating as Seattle playing against teams with roughly the same defensive rating as New England, in the 4th quarter, with 2:00 or less on the clock, and with the passing team needing the points to get a win? I'll trust you to do the "roughly" part within fairly tight boundaries. And if you want to get really accurate about it, make those ratings based on what they were at the time of the games, or immediately afterwards, not what they were at season's end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) I just hate people who know little about the nuts and bolts of the game claiming they are some sort of play-calling guru. And criticizing someone who has decades of experience, and championship titles at two different levels, because they don't "get" what happened. Oddly enough, you, less than anyone else who's chimed in has explained your position intelligently. You just keep going with short, dopey comments. I have gone out of my way and explained my take from several angles, all of which you simply dismiss without clarification other than you "thought" it was a bad call. I apologize. Clearly you are the expert and we are all idiots and you hate us. Whether we are older than you and have watched and evaluated more football than you or not. Simply doesn't matter. You're the expert. Your opinion rules. Nobody else's can possibly be valid for themselves. Edited February 3, 2015 by Aggie87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 As though it matters. You want indoor/outdoor, turf/grass, sunny/cloudy/windy/rainy/snow, right-handed/left-handed, 1pm/4pm, Monday/Thursday/Saturday/Sunday and elevation splits as well? As long as the strength of your argument rest solely on "Jim thought they should have run the ball", there's really nothing left of the conversation. They called a play, it was a fine play package for package, they didn't execute it as well as New England defended it. The End All the teeth gnashing is due strictly to the result. If it had been completed for a touchdown, the play call itself wouldn't even be a topic of conversation. Well now, see this is just silly. Your argument is being reinforced by stats, but now stats don't matter? If stats don't matter, then don't quote stats. I don't watch football a much as I used to, but I look at stats/data more than ever and see all sorts of careless and or specious positions put forth through "analysis" that is about as useful as "it's warmer today than it was yesterday". Frankly, "stats" are just another form of "opinion" if not looked at with any kind of qualitative depth. Anybody can get a damn statistic, just like anybody can have a damn opinion. Properly/relevantly refined stats give a more accurate assessment of any situation. Always. Stats like those you quote are a starting point, not a Final Answer. For the record - I was asking for refinement of your statistics, not challenging them. I don't know the answers right now, and obviously neither do you. You may have a point, but not like this. Right now, all I see is attempted Stat Bullying. I see it every day and it's extremely weak, aspirations of the purveyors to the contrary. If you got more, show it. And if nothing remains to the conversation, stop conversating! Silly! Game Over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) What it shows is that the play called was anything but idiotic, as the "experts" here are claiming. I would have brought in the heavy package and run it, but that doesn't the play he called stupid. I personally don't believe in passing from the one, but every coach since Bill Walsh has seen the wisdom in it. And since passing from the one has been shown as at least as viable as running, it makes the opinions expressed here seem quite silly. Once again, if the play had resulted in a touchdown, no one would have even brought it up after the game as TD passes on second and goal from inside the five aren't exactly revolutionary. They're fairly commonplace. But, because New England defended it perfectly, everyone and their grandmother think they had the secret formula for Seattle to win the game. Yes, silly indeed. Edited February 3, 2015 by Scott Dolan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I was incorrect... Holy shit; I almost fell out of my chair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I was incorrect... Holy shit; I almost fell out of my chair. As will I when the first "expert" here steps and and admits "ok, it didn't work, but it was a reasonable play to call". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/160678/twitter-reaction-to-seattle-seahawks-fourth-quarter-interception All of these NFL players (who I'd assume have more knowledge about football than you, but then again there are no guarantees) feel like it was a terrible play call. I don't see a comparable article compiling NFL player comments that say "Great Call! Too Bad it was intercepted". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Who ever said it was a great call? Like Billick and Sharpe said in the video I posted, they could find nothing wrong with the call. But, the whole thing is predicated on the result. I guarantee many of those players, had the play succeeded, would have been talking about the amazing pass play Carroll called catching the defense, selling out against the run, completely off guard! Once more, it was a fine play considering the packages on the field. The Patriots simply executed better. What a great indictment of our petulant society. One of the best Superbowls of all time, and instead of enjoying that fact, they have to get angry and look for someone to condemn so that they can feel a sense of superiority. Though, I do get the sense that had it been any other team besides the Patriots, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The bad guys won, now someone must pay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Wow, I didn't realize I was so "angry". Look at the way you communicate, Scott. And then ask yourself who looks angry here. Or better yet, go out and enjoy a round of golf (how's your game been, btw?) Carroll is clearly a heck of a coach. I'm not condemning him or his ability. He made a bad mistake, in my opinion. This IS about opinions (re the play call), except that the play failed. That's a fact. If a nearly-naked Will Ferrell had been subbed in by the Seahawks, that might have distracted the defense enough for Seattle to have scored on any play they might have called. And then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I was pulling more for the Patriots, btw, and yes, all other things remaining the same, we'd (at least I would) be having this conversation no matter what team was in the white jerseys. I enjoyed the game, and wish that all Super Bowls were this exciting at the finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Or better yet, go out and enjoy a round of golf (how's your game been, btw?) Ah, yes. I believe that would be a point deducted in boxing! Eh, I can honestly say this: last year I shot the best game I've ever shot, and one of the worst games I've ever shot. Funny story, my number two golf partner (behind my son) is named Scott. He and I also share the same birthday. So every year we go out and play 18 on our birthday. This past year I couldn't hit the ball into the ocean from the end of the pier through the first six holes. Then I suddenly hit this perfect drive on seven, and my entire day turned around. Later Scott said to me, "man, I was really feeling bad for even asking you come out to play today. I haven't seen you struggle that bad since we first started playing together". But, after having been turned into a newt, I got better... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Or better yet, go out and enjoy a round of golf (how's your game been, btw?) Ah, yes. I believe that would be a point deducted in boxing! Oh, I'll take it. Wasn't really "in it to win it" here. I see your perspective on this, and that's fine by me that we simply see it differently. This past year I couldn't hit the ball into the ocean from the end of the pier through the first six holes.So... I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE!! (or, "wasn't" the only one, as I had sense enough to stop playing several years ago)Then I suddenly hit this perfect drive on seven, and my entire day turned around.I remember that feeling very well, except for the "turned around" part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 We keep score by keeping track of the number of balls lost. Nothing screams hopeless golf addict more than that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Good point! I'll refrain from talking about my game as it relates to that subject. (Let's just say I actually had enough practice at hitting out of creek beds that I got pretty good at it. Not sure why that principle never applied to five-foot putts) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dolan Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hey, our local sports store sells a bucket of 50 balls for $22.99! Can't beat that. And they're all Top Flite. Oh, and five foot putts? Those are a breeze. It's the two foot putts that have me spitting nails! Actually, my short game got pretty damned good last year. Chipping/pitching onto the green, and putting became a strength. Now, actually getting up to that point, well...that was...how shall I put it? Problematic...at times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hey, our local sports store sells a bucket of 50 balls for $22.99! Can't beat that. And they're all Top Flite. Many of those were probably mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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