Hoppy T. Frog Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Goodness, I didn't know we had to solve this thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 I look at it like the purpose of a press release is to get people on your side, to take a side, make a decision, like, yes, I think I would like to see this movie, or yes, I want to see Ornette win this lawsuit. I don't like to take sides until I'm more or less fully informed to my satisfaction, which at this point, I am not, not even remotely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Goodness, I didn't know we had to solve this thing! If you've read anything at all on this board in the last ten years, you'll know we have been preparing ourselves for exactly this moment. Our time has come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 Here's another "odd" thing, perhaps, to me any way - all the "entertainment press" (such as has been covering it), has turned this into an Ornette Coleman vs. Jordan McLean thing, whereas it is Amir Ziv who has handled the only, to this date, response from the defendant's side. Also, when I had problems with the website when ordering, it was Mr. Ziv who handled most of the correspondence and driving the transaction to a successful completion. I got the impression that Mr. Ziv was, like, the "main guy" as far as handling the business of the label goes. And yes, he is named in the suit as well, but press (i.e. - The Court Of Public Opinion) is pivoting into some kind of Ornette vs Antibalas The House Band Of Fela The Musical kind of thing, which pushes all kinds of Original Black Creator vs White Opportunist Bloodsucker buttons, and when that starts happening, nobody even wants to hear the other side of the story, their sympathies have made their minds up for them. There are all kinds of racial/ethnic, cultural, economic, and generational things that are bubbling underneath what on the surface seems to be a pretty simple "he said this, no he said that, ok, let's see your evidence" lawsuit. It was the press release that got me. People don't do press releases unless they want to court public opinion in advance. More buttons standing by, awaiting pushing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 It also could be that the purpose of the press release was to let Ornette's fans who hadn't already purchased the recording know that it wasn't authorized and, for that reason, they shouldn't purchase it. All of this speculation seems a bit foolish. Let things play out as they will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 "Speculation" is really all we have right now. Accusations and defenses, none of them proven in court yet. The press release went beyond just an alert, it invoked outrage about things like overdubbing and editing, which, seriously? that never happens, even on jazz records, even, maybe, on Ornette records, ever? And we have one pretty serious difference of opinion - the press release characterizes the encounter as "teaching sessions" and the System Dialing remain firm that, no, this wasn't us showing up and taking lessons with Ornette, we were there to do work, and that's the one thing that's out there I that feels right to me, and has me a little pissed off about the press release, like they aren't just trying to stop the release, or to get paid, they're looking to besmirch the other musicians, turning the business maneuver into something else entirely, like they're saying that these guys are beneath Ornette, which, I don't think anybody would not stipulate to that, and yet they played together and got a damn good record out of it, how embarrassing that must be. And oh yeah, also to promote an upcoming tribute album with Sonny Rollins, Savion Glover, and Patti Smith. As for fans not buying the album, yeah, don't. Download it or get a burn from a friend. Unless/Until they sic the government on everybody who bought a copy and waterboard them into giving up everybody they've made copies for, that genie's done out of the bottle forever. So, yet, get that shit off the market RIGHT NOW! That press release did not sit well with me, obviously. Seemed to be about Reputational Dick Swinging than anything else, and where was that coming from? Leads me to wonder if it was as unauthorized by Ornette himself as the record probably was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 The teaching claim is there to support the bootleg case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 31, 2015 Report Share Posted May 31, 2015 No, it's not. It's there to Dick Swing. I don't think that "bootleg" is at all determined by the relative status/abilities involved in a recording, is it? No, it's determined, bolstered, proved, whatever, by legal parameters quite apart from that. Working musicians (and other people, I'm sure) have experienced the syndrome where you hear about a gig where the leader shorts the band in some way, maybe the bread is light, maybe there's unpaid overtime, maybe breaks are skipped, whatever, and one guy raises hell, calls the bandleader out in public, and the bandleader plays it off all slick and shit. And then, the next morning, you and every other person who has ever showed up on even one gig ever gets an email from that same bandleader talking about how they regret that I will be no longer be hiring Mr. X due to a regrettable professional disagreement, and that this is being done with great sorrow because I have felt personally invested in Mr. X, who is a fine young talent with SO much potential, why, I have hired him in spite of his struggles with obtaining affordable, reliable transportation, and I've been nothing but supportive of Mr. X in his brave efforts in battling the various personal demons that so many of young people of his background face these days, and I have hired Mr. X whenever possible because I know he's has multiple families to support, and above all, Mr. X is a fine, FINE musician who when he matures will no doubt be a talent worthy of our business, and I sincerely hope that all of you will able to provide Mr. X with future employment, and I also sincerely hope that in time I will be able to resume a working relationship with Mr. X, of whom I have nothing but the highest regards and most benevolent wishes, especially since I have a steady schedule of very lucrative engagements booked for the next five years. In other words, what, me fuck the band? Why would i do that? Mr. X is an unreliable, no count lowlife, and yeah, I'm sending this to other bandleaders and all known sidemen alike, just so you know what happens when you even think about calling me on my bullshit. Dick Swing for days. So, there to "support the bootleg claim" my ass. That shit is in there for game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 The lawyers wrote that, we can be sure they had their reasons for the way they shaped the charge. You can see that the defence lawyer has deliberately countered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I can see that Ziv Amir has countered it, and referred further inquiries to the label's counsel. And if you don't think that Reputational Dick Swing does not go into laying any kind of a groundwork in a case like this, really? Maybe that's not how they do thing in England, that being such a civilized society, but over here, we pull hairs, kick nuts, whatever it takes to come to trial with Justice On OUR Side. Ask yourself this - if you were Ornette's peoples, would you prefer going into a case like this with the perception being that some common students taped their lessons, or that some valid professionals collaborated on a project that was never quite properly signed off on before its release? If/when the subject came up (and god forbid, actual audio recordings surface) about what Ornette might have said about this being collective music, "our music", whatever, would you not want that to be viewed as talking to some eager-beaver studentboys instead of some dedicated young collaborators? So, if you're representing the interests of an 83 year old eccnetric genius who's liable to have said anything, how do you want your opponents to be perceived? It's a bootleg if Paul Bley releases it under uncompleted business circumstances, it's a bootleg if System Dialing releases it under uncompleted business circumstances. The Reputational Dick Swing gap between Paul Bley and System Dialing is real enough, but the Reputational Dick Swing gap between System Dialing, Prover Professionals and some unsavory students who snuck in off the street and snuck back out with some practice tapes is broader still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlhoots Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Ornette probably / hopefully knew what was going on in 2009. Sadly he may not now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 And maybe that's another reason for the Reputational Dick Swing in the press release - firing a warning shot to other people who might have recordings of them practicing/playing/hangingout with Ornette (you think there might be one or two?) and end up getting ideas...but all such parties would have to do would be to go all shadygrady to some offshore phantom entity and then an outraged I did NOT intend for these recordings to enter the public marketplace, I feel a profound betrayal blahblablahblahblah...which again - why did THESE guys get the balls to release it openly on their own label, their own country, hell the SAME city???? when they could have collected good enough lumpsum for REALLY bootlegging them and making it look like somebody else's doings, ALL partied betrayed then, ALL parties taken advantage of, ETC! No, there's more in that press release than just pimping a Patti Smith LUVVS Ornette coloring book and play-a-long record...foreplay for trial, warning shot to inquistives, and, perhaps inadvertently, a revealance that the House Of Coleman does not have it own business in order to the degree that perhaps it should, that'[s why they talking about Mr. X like that, do divert attention elsewhere, because y'all think Dookie done gone, hell, Dookie get a whiff of that blood starting to drip into the water, sheeet, Dookie Jr., Dookie III, Dookie IV, Jr. it'll be open sea on and open arms for all the little Dookies who wanna eat a piece o' Denardo. I ask any and all of y'[all - would you want to be in a position to protect Ornette from Ornette in real time, never mind whatever stories you get brought from 5-10-20 years ago? From the 1970s? Showdown a-brewin' at the OC Corrall, New Sharif Denardo gonna be tested mighty hard for might long...maybe. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Going back to the Bley thing, if Coleman was paid as a sideman on those gigs and Bley taped them, doesn't the owner/bandleader get to do what he wants with those tapes as long as publishing is paid? I count five Coleman tunes across two records, with the rest being a standard, a Roy Eldridge and a Charlie Parker line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Ornette didn't see it that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 But since this was before any of those dudes were under contract to a label - 1958 - and Bley led that band and taped the sessions, I'd assume sidemen were SOL when it came to recordings being released. Of course Bley could've been a nice guy and drawn up new contracts, but I assume it was probably within his rights not to. I also think there's a space in between "stupid" and "evil" that a fair amount of artists/businesspeople operate within. Sadly that gives many more latitude than they perhaps deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Oh, if what people deserve and what they can do are going to come to trial, the courtrooms gonna be packed for the next millennia. Le's take that one out into society at large, thre's some house-cleaning needed everywhere! And do note that the IAI Bley/Coleman record has never been reissued here. Some kind of dick got swung some kind of where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Was thinking about the track with Ornette that Yoko Ono included on her "Plastic Ono Band" album. Was there a contract, either before or after recording? (Probably not, since Zappa complained about something similar regarding the "Sometime in NYC" album.) Will Denardo go after Yoko next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Have we become a forum of wannabe lawyers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Have we become a forum of wannabe lawyers? A long time ago. Our case to have Andorra excluded from the European Union - or, if it has already been excluded, to include it again - will be heard before the World Court (when that comes into existence) before the end of this or the next century. In the meantime, there is the court of public opinion. In which we are masters. Masters, I tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uli Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 (edited) Have we become a forum of wannabe lawyers? as an ex lawyer i would like Judge Judy resolve the pending issues Edited June 1, 2015 by uli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Have we become a forum of wannabe lawyers? Hey, they had me at "bar". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcam_44 Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 I find it odd that Ornette, who records so sparsely, for whatever reason, would have chosen System Dialing to release a new album. Also strange that you have Ornette on a record for your new label and you don't have that plastered all over the album cover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 Odd and strange alike, indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 A defendant speaks: http://soundcheck.wnyc.org/story/jazz-legend-returns-lawsuit-ornette-coleman/ I hope there are cameras in the courtroom when somebody gives the admissible testimonial equivalent of "shit, Ornette's liable to say ANY damn thing, you gotta take all that shit with a grain of salt". That's the lesson that Idealistic Perfect World needs to learn, not about Ornette, but about things in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 1, 2015 Report Share Posted June 1, 2015 But since this was before any of those dudes were under contract to a label - 1958 - and Bley led that band and taped the sessions, I'd assume sidemen were SOL when it came to recordings being released. Of course Bley could've been a nice guy and drawn up new contracts, but I assume it was probably within his rights not to. I also think there's a space in between "stupid" and "evil" that a fair amount of artists/businesspeople operate within. Sadly that gives many more latitude than they perhaps deserve. There is/was actually a union rule covering this at the time of the Bley recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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