Did The Mothers & Don Ellis Ever Perform On The Same Bill?

[JSngry]

http://www.npd117.net/cms/lib02/IL01001910/Centricity/Domain/11/12-14-12%204th%20-%20Decomposing%20Fractions.pdf

[MomsMobley]

in case anyone doesn't "get" your allusive illustration, that's a good question that i'll research at next opportunity.

both George Duke and Ralph Humphrey (at least) played in both bands

Zappa alumni jazz sidenote: Carmen McRae "Only Women Bleed" w/ Ian Underwood synt (Larry Carlton arrangement, Larry & Dennis Budimir guitars)--

also "Can't Hide Live" (w/o Ian) arranged by by Gerald Wilson--

 

Edited February 26, 2017 by MomsMobley

[Д.Д.]

In addition to Humphrey, Zappa's other drummers, Terry Bozzio and Chad Wakerman, attended Ellis clinics and workshops. Vinnie Colaiuta, another Zappa's drummer, mentioned that attending Don Ellis Big Band concert as a child was a formative experience for him.

Trombonist Glenn Ferris and bassist Dave Parlato played with both Ellis and Zappa.

And Ellis played on Zappa's "Absolutely Free". 

Otherwise, no connection. 

[clifford_thornton]

Hot Rats sounds like a more wily Clare Fischer album.

[JSngry]

Coincidentally, I listened to Hot Rats over the weekend, first time in a long time...and never before have I been so bugged by the symmetry of the whole thing, everything is square on the beat, all the soloists begin and end their lines dead on the beat, and really, nobody leaves any space for anything. That's true of so much of Zappa's music. Very hip metrically so often, so very square in terms of time/pocket, Oh well, it is what it is. Good with the bad.

And also - "Peaches en Regalia" is just a really stupid, corny song. It sounds like a Steely Dan parody, only of course it would be the other way around. But god, that's a rancid piece of cheese. It makes me cringe now more than ever, and I really don't understand why "people like it" as much as they do.

I think Claire Fischer had more wile than to let any of that happen.

Now, that's the things about the record I don't like. I still like what I've always liked about it - the energy, the presence of "jazz musicians" making a "jam" rock record, Ian Underwood, Beefheart, both violinists, and "Little Umbrellas", most of which would not have been out of place in the Last Days Ellington Band, those voicings.

 

[clifford_thornton]

I'm pretty into Hot Rats but am also a recent Zappa convert, so perhaps the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. I don't see it as stiff.

[JSngry]

Not stiff, just very symmetrical. I mean, you can definitely dance to it, but you gotta be ready to dance without a lot of time/space curvature. That's still beating the hell out of not dancing at all, though,

No matter, imagine this as a part of Toga Brava Suite, or African-Eurasian Eclipse. I can hear it there, mostly. Not the middle section, but the bookends.

 

[clifford_thornton]

yup.

[Rooster_Ties]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

And also - "Peaches en Regalia" is just a really stupid, corny song. It sounds like a Steely Dan parody, only of course it would be the other way around. But god, that's a rancid piece of cheese. It makes me cringe now more than ever, and I really don't understand why "people like it" as much as they do.

I think "Peaches..." is a lot better 'tune' than the Hot Rats version really represents.  That said, I'm sure there are other Zappa renditions (of "Peaches...") that I could say the same thing about (and even many covers of the tune too).

It's one of the more "hooky" things Frank every wrote (and probably "hokey" too), but the melody is about as accessible as he every wrote (well, except for "Sofa" - nothing goes down much easier than "Sofa").

On an (un?)related note -- does anyone else think of the closing theme music from Saturday Night Live, when they hear "Sofa"??  Not an exact match, I realize, but god damn if they don't feel more similar than two 'not-actually-the-same' pieces of music ever could.

[JSngry]

There really is a lot of corniness in Zappa's music, not all of it intentional. Or so it seems to me. Listening to the early-ish Mothers live stugg where he's required to carry the vocals is...uncomfortable. The hiring of Flo & Eddie makes sense n that light (and others), those guys could actually sing. Frank was not a singer, not like that.

But hey, for every piece of cheese like "Peaches", there's something stuff like this, so again, good with bad, it is what it is.

 

[xybert]

Funnily enough given the subject of the thread, both Zappa and Ellis have off-puttingly corny elements in their music for me. 

When i first heard Peaches, i was coming at it as someone who had listened to virtually no jazz or fusion. Heavily in to hip hop, i had a similar reaction as when i heard Bitches Brew: "This is why hip hop is awesome! They take that one bit that sounded cool and loop it and make something cool out of it." In other words, it's almost taking what Jim dislikes about Peaches and concentrating it to the zillionth point: forget leaving room etc, have NO solos at all, make it perfectly square and symmetrical and repeating in to infinity. In other words again, i disliked it for almost the exact opposite reasons that Jim did/does. 

It took me a while to break my musical taste out of that mould. I like Peaches and it was a stepping stone for me to stuff like Bitches Brew and beyond but i enjoy each for what they are.

Anyway, just wanted to give a different view point. Obviously taste in music and corniness is subjective, but sometimes we're coming at it from completely different planets.

 

[clifford_thornton]

there are some sick live versions of Peaches that I've heard.

coming recently to Zappa after nearly 20 years of listening to avant-garde jazz, contemporary composers, weirdo rock and experimental music is like trying a spliff after decades of heavy LSD use. It's refreshing and fun for a little stretch.

[JSngry]

Just listened again. What I like and dislike is the intensity and the "professionalism" of the rhythm sections, but on those jams, hardly anybody leaves space except Ian Underwood (gutiars and violins don't have to breathe, even if they should...), and Ian, you can set your watch by where he starts and stops and repeats.

That, and there's a lot of "modality" in the soloing, but very little chromaticism...between that an nobody breathing, my enjoyment of the record has become targeted rather than specific. Then again, I'm very much an "original Mothers" guy when it comes to Zappa, period. I think he was probably always a bit "nasty" in his disposition, but at some point it jsut got obsessive, oppressive, or something.Not all at once, just gradually. But definitely.

Put another way, when I meet people who say that they're really into Zappa and don't know any of the Verve stuff (or even worse, consider it not "fully formed" or some such), I try to get away as gracefully and as quickly as possible.

Space, plenty of space. Space and breath.

 

[Д.Д.]

I an in total agreement with Jim on "Hot Rats"  - and yes, I can't stand "Peaches..." either. I think the best track on the album is the last one, "It Must be a Camel", it has some very interesting harmony there.

Having said this, it is important to keep in mind that Zappa made an enormous leap as a guitar soloist around '74, so his blues lick-infested and repetitive soloing on Hot Rats is not representative of his guitar improvisation prowess .