The Lennie Tristano-Herbie Hancock connection

[AllenLowe]

I actually find Lenny to be the deepest, emotionally, of all, so reactions do vary. The Gm complex is, to me, one of the deepest performances in all of 20th century American music.

[davetjazz]

Yeah that prof X analogy really hits it. I think the thing that's often forgotten about Lennie is that he did this BLIND.

There was no music for his theory/teaching, he totally assimilated his Bird, Bud Powell, Roy Eldridge, Tatum and etc influences all through the ears, so naturally taught it through the ears. No transcription books. Sure he doesn't swing like *whoever you consider swinging*, but surely his concept can be added to any sort of approach you take to the music.

Just a brilliant mind.

There was a time where Herbie met Lennie at a club, Richard Tabnik said he almost stumbled over himself to meet Lennie. I don't know the specifics, but I can def see how that Tristano school of playing could be a hidden reservoir of ideas on the opposite side of Free Jazz.

[JSngry]

What's hidden about it?

[AllenLowe]

"There was a time where Herbie met Lennie at a club, Richard Tabnik said he almost stumbled over himself to meet Lennie"

thank you, finally some external support here - and something of a smoking gun for my position. A witness. Reality. Concrete image.

truth

Edited August 5, 2010 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

Though a huge Tristano defender, I don't think Richard Tabnik would be a credible witness in this case.

[davetjazz]

Yeah, I wouldn't put much behind the story. Though I can just put on Line Up or East 32nd Street, and hear Miles Smiles era Herbie. When I dig Plugged Nickel Wayne Shorter I hear Warne Marsh. (Actually I heard Wayne Shorter before Marsh... all the Blue Note stuff, ESP, etc, Almost fell out of my chair when I heard Warne's solo from Too Close For Comfort. Like a ton of bricks)

Though Herbie was playing with that kind of attack in realtime and those former tracks were time stretched. (In truth they were never intended to be released anyways, Tristano was just practicing). If only my practicing sounded like that.

What would be most beneficial would be to seek out which Tristano/Marsh/Konitz albums were released at the time Herbie/Wayne or whoever...might have heard them...

(BTW Chuck Nessa, that All Music album is heavy, it's generally the first Warne Album I recommend if somebody's interested, along with Star Highs and Music for Prancing)

[Chuck Nessa]

Thanks.

Hard for me to put together a chronology - I started listening to Miles and Tristano in the late '50s / early '60s.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Chuck Nessa

[Larry Kart]

like that.

What would be most beneficial would be to seek out which Tristano/Marsh/Konitz albums were released at the time Herbie/Wayne or whoever...might have heard them...

Here's the relevant info:

http://www.jazzdisco.org/lennie-tristano/discography/

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=lee+konitz+discography&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=CmqqQKlFbTJvcHouWMNfWvdoGAAAAqgQFT9A28JU

http://www.warnemarsh.info/discography.htm

To summarize, it seems fairly safe to assume that, at the least, Shorter and Hancock were aware in their formative years of the classic Tristano Capitol sides with Marsh and Konitz (1949); they were initially reissued on LP (10" IIRC) in the early or mid-1950s. Konitz, of course, was a featured soloist with Kenton in 1952-53, and one would have had to be constitutionally Kenton-averse not to have encountered some of Konitz's many recordings with that popular band, most of which were in print on various LP packages for (I believe) most of that decade. Prime Marsh (other than the Tristano Capitol material and the one date Marsh and Konitz did for New Jazz under Marsh's name) would have been harder for Shorter and Hancock to find, with one key exception -- the lovely Atlantic album Marsh and Konitz did in 1955, with Billy Bauer, Oscar Pettiford, and Kenny Clarke. As for Tristano, the prime post-Capitol Lennie both men would have been a good bet to hear in their formative years was the Atlantic album with "Line Up" et al. on one side and the live Confucius Room quartet material with Konitz on the other (1955). The Atlantic Marsh quartet album is from 1958, by which time Shorter probably was essentially himself.

There was a great deal more Konitz available during those years; I'm mentioning only those recordings by Tristano, Marsh, and Konitz that seem to me most likely to have been heard by a reasonably curious jazz fan who lived in Chicago or Newark.

[AllenLowe]

actually I have proof of Tabnik's story - luckily for me, someone snapped a photo of Herbie on that fateful night rushing to see Tristano, his practice books in hand -

Edited August 6, 2010 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

thanks to Big Wheel for reminding me about this thread -

I received a personal email this morning, which I shall not disclose until I receive permission, that confirms the story of Herbie Hancock running over to see Lennie Tristano.

thank you Big Wheel, once more, for reminding me that certain obsessions never die.

Edited September 30, 2010 by AllenLowe

[ghost of miles]

I'm sure it's been discussed previously on the board, but last night I was listening to disc 1 of the Miles 1965-68 box set and really noticed the Tristano influence coming through on "Dolores."  Googled out of curiosity and came across this article, which does indeed namecheck Miles Smiles (the original album on which "Dolores" appeared) as audible evidence of LT's influence on Herbie:

The Lennie Tristano-Herbie Hancock Connection

 

EDIT:  I see to no surprise that it has been discussed before.  Mods, feel free to delete this thread and add my comment to Allen's previously existing one.