*** CHORAL Classical Music Corner ***

[Rooster_Ties]

Hi all. Even among many serious fans of classical music, choral music is often 2nd banana to all-instrumental orchestral music (symphonies and such), and as a listener, even I have to admit that I prefer instrumental "classical" music over choral classical music.

BUT, as it turns out, the only damn thing I'm any good at, musically speaking, is singing. I even got my 2nd bachelor's degree in music (first one was in computer science), with a sort of co-concentration in vocal performance and music history.

I sang in my college choir during all of my college years, and I have sung baritone in the Kansas City Symphony Chorus since the fall of 1995 (gosh, hard to believe that was nearly 10 years ago).

As a result, I have had the good fortune to sing a whole bunch of GREAT choral music (mostly the “big” multi-movement works, with orchestra) --- music I frankly would have never give a second thought about listening to otherwise. (Well, some of it I might have bought recordings of --- but I'm much more rabid about orchestral music, and instrumental chamber music too, for that matter -- and I can probably count the number of CD's of "choral" music I own, on my fingers and toes. And even then, they're most of works I've performed.)

ANYWAY, I'm about to perform the Brahms German Requiem next weekend (March 26-28), and we had our first rehearsal earlier tonight with the actual conductor who will be leading the orchestra when we perform the piece.

I've sung the Brahms Requiem before, about 5 years ago, and again about 3 years before that. But I still can't help but be blown-away by this piece. I never heard the piece, really, before I sang it -- so I don't know what it's like to just hear it, without knowing all the ins and outs of the music (or at least the baritone choral part, and bits and pieces of all the other parts - which one inevitably picks up from hearing them so many times in rehearsal, and during performance week).

In fact, another unexpected benefit of being in a symphony chorus, is that I am forced to listen to the works we perform, nearly a dozen times in a very short period of time (during the last week of rehearsals and the actual performances). We usually perform the work 3 times (Fri, Sat, Sun), and have rehearsals with the orchestra on the Thursday and Wednesday immediately prior, plus a chorus-only rehearsal on the Monday prior. In addition to that, I frequently will listen to recordings of the works two or three times during that same week, especially if it's a work I wasn't familiar with before -- just to try to get my ear around the way the orchestral parts sound (since we spend two months rehearsing without the orchestra). As a result, whether I like it or not, I get much more "into" these works that I ever would otherwise...

...AND, in a few cases (Beethoven's 9th symphony, and Mahler's 2nd symphony), I even get the added benefit of getting to sit on-stage during upwards of 45 minutes of purely orchestral music (no chorus), for all the non-choral movements, for 4 or 5 performances/rehearsals of the works. For instance, there was one year, back around 1997 or so, when I got to hear Beethoven's 9th while being on-stage, about 10 times all in the same year (we did the darn thing again in summer, after having done it the previous fall). Now I'm not normally one to go on and on about Beathoven's 9th. But I did find that being forced to listen to it so many times within such a short period of time, really did allow me to hear things in the music that I would probably have never otherwise noticed. (Much like seeing the movie Citizen Kane on the big screen, three times in the same week, as I did several years ago.)

Well, enough of my babbling. Are there any other choral singers here?? (Probably not, but it never hurts to ask.) Failing that, for those that might happen to have heard (or have recordings of) a few big multi-movement choral works (with orchestra), which are your favorites??

The Brahms Requiem is one of my favorites, but singing Mahler's 8th Symphony ("Symphony of a Thousand") was also a big thrill for me (the first movement is all choral, and is 25-minutes of a full double-choir (16 independent choral parts) with a double fugue. It didn't make a bit of sense to me as the chorus was learning it, but when we finally put it all together, and then when we added the orchestra - I finally felt like I "got" Mahler like I had never gotten him before. (Seriously, singing Mahler's 8th is what unlocked the "Mahler" door for me, in terms of getting all his other symphonies.)

Did I say "enough of my babbling" before?? OK, this time I mean it. Discuss anything and everything "choral" here in this thread...

Edited March 16, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Jim Alfredson]

Brahms' Requiem is one of my favorites as well. Had the pleasure of performing it with a 200+ choir and full orchestra at Michigan State. Fun fun.

I miss singing in choir. My high school buddy (who I met in choir) and I talk about that quite a bit. We should join MSU's Community Choir. They were part of the afore-mentioned Brahms bash. They are a really fine choir. But I'm not too fond of it's director. He once made fun of me in front of the elite choir at MSU (which he also directed) while I wasn't there... I sang in an a capella men's group at the time and we sang a lot of pop stuff. He ragged on me because I sang in that group with a raised larynx. Like you're supposed to sing fuckin' Temptations with a classical technique... that would sound REAL HIP!!!

Anyway... I hear ya, Rooster. Choir is fun. I loved being in small, 12 person mixed choirs with no accompiament.

[king ubu]

I'm not very well acquainted with classical music, in general, but one thing I always did like was early polyphonic music. Dufay, Lassus, Ockeghem, that kind of stuff. Masses and "Mottetten" as they're called in german, don't know the english word for it. That's not the choral music you talk of, Rooster, but for me these composers did some of the best vocal music ever, no matter of what genre or style.

Janacek did some nice choral things, too.

ubu

[Rooster_Ties]

ubu, sounds like the english term for what you describe is a Motet. That kind of music is often incredibly beautiful, and surprisingly difficult to sing at times. Early motets, especially, didn't follow all the musical rules about what intervals sounded (supposedly) pleasing, and which didn't -- so you get some very interesting harmonies going on there at times -- some as difficult to sing (and tune) as some 20th Century music.

On a related, but slightly different note -- I also sang in college in a Madrigal group, that sang Renaissance (1400-1600) and Baroque (1600-1750) era music. The group was usually only 10 to 14 voices, rarely with more than 2 or 3 (or maybe 4) voices on any one part. We also sang 'mixed' (meaning not all the basses in one section, or tenors in one section, etc...), so you really had to use your ear more. Madrigals were great fun to sing.

And (on another note), I sang in a barbershop quartet for a couple of years too. Talk about ear-training -- it helped me more than just about anything else, since each person in the quartet only sings their own part. I sang baritone in 'barbershop' - which I always felt was the most difficult part. The bass sang what are typically 'bass' parts, meaning the usually sang the roots of chords all the time. And the 'lead' (I guess you could call it the 2nd tenor part), always sang the melody. And the 'tenor' (meaning the really high part) always sang harmony parts above the melody (like Art Garfunkel does against Paul Simon's melody, or lead). Barbershop quartet music is REALLY corny, and gets really old quickly if you're just listening to it. But as a singer, it's GREAT fun to perform.

[Jim Alfredson]

Motets and madrigals. Fun stuff. One of my favorite composers of that era:

Palestrina

Rooster, I'm sure you've heard/seen the Tallis Scholars?

[Rooster_Ties]

Rooster, I'm sure you've heard/seen the Tallis Scholars?

Heard them here in Kansas City about 5 or 6 years ago, in a huge cathedral-like church with great acoustics (probably a 2-second reverb). Was pretty amazing. Not the kind of music I own much of (or any of, now that I think of it), nor do I have a burning passion to listen to around the house.

But to hear it performed live, and in the right context - it's really something you don't quickly forget.

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm not big on choral music - choirs tend to sing in plummy accents over here, sounding like they all come from Eton - but some pieces do grab me.

I think Janacek's 'Glagolitic Mass' is my favourite (it's hard to sound like you come from Eton when you sing in Glagolitic).

Stravinsky's 'Symphony of Psalms' is nice and spikey as you'd expect.

Lots of good choral Britten. The 'Spring Symphony' is a beauty for this time of year. And the 'War Requiem', of course, is very well known and very powerful.

Holst's 'The Hymn of Jesus' is a marvellous piece, again with odd musical references. There are some beautiful recordings of his smaller scale stuff. His 'Choral Symphony' has glorious passages but always seems overlong to me and I've never really taken to his 'Choral Fantasia'.

I love Elgar's 'Dream of Gerontius'...a bit heavy on the Catholic mysticism but fabulous music.

Edited March 16, 2004 by Bev Stapleton

[Rooster_Ties]

Stravinsky's 'Symphony of Psalms' is nice and spikey as you'd expect.

I love Elgar's 'Dream of Gerontius'...a bit heavy on the Catholic mysticism but fabulous music.

I love the Symphony of Psalms - and, oddly enough, it was the very first BIG choral work I ever heard performed live. I've had the good fortune to sing it twice in the last 10 years. Very powerful work.

Also, the chorus I'm in did The Dream of Gerontius a couple years ago, and unlike on your side of the pond, Bev, 'Gerontius' isn't performed much over here. There are 120 people in our chorus, and there were probably 90 professional instrumental musicians on the stage too. And among those 200+ musicians, only three people had ever performed it before, prior to the production we did.

Another great British choral work is Tippett's A Child of Our Time - which I understand is also performed much more frequently in the U.K. (and maybe also in Europe?), than it is here in the U.S. - which is a shame. Complex 20th Century harmonies, alternating with movements that are choral settings of traditional negro folk spirituals/hymns. Very powerful.

[Joe G]

Rooster, I'm sure you've heard/seen the Tallis Scholars?

They're coming to Ann Arbor next week, and once again, we have a gig that night. I've missed them for something like 4 years running.

[maren]

Hey Rooster -- I've been singing soprano in a large (~150 voice) classical chorus in NYC for the past two years and alto in a small (at most, 12-voice) madrigal/motet-y group for three.

(Maybe you never got my BNBB-era PM -- November 2002? -- you were selling some classical CDs and I was looking for Berlioz Messe Solennelle to help learn it for the big group.)

I sang in choruses in college (was a voice major for a few years) and then spent about 20 years in other genres (!) (let's just call it "Other Music from Under Ground" -- if anyone's familiar with that venerable venue originally known as CBGB-OMFUG) before hooking back up with "classical" recently.

I know what you mean about choral music being toward the bottom of the "listening to" list -- the only pieces that ever had some serious rotation there for me are Symphony of Psalms, Britten War Requiem, Mozart Requiem -- and some opera choruses (Boris Godunov stands out for me as one where the chorus has a real dramatic role). [Also, not "classical" but definitely choral: Kirk Franklin, recently.]

But it's been great to sing this music -- the big group I'm in (St. Cecilia Chorus) performs at Carnegie Hall with orchestra twice a year, and does a third concert in a big church with organist. Still to come this year is Bach St. Matthew Passion at Carnegie Hall in May.

Shortly after I joined the big group, I was amazed to realize how GREAT I felt at 10 PM after 3-hour rehearsal. A big part of this is physical -- I walk miles everyday and am in pretty good shape, but I've never really gotten into yoga or any exercise routine beyond walking -- so singing long phrases in long pieces for 3 hours with a 15-min break in the middle makes me feel like I guess OTHER people feel after their tai-chi-class-equivalent. An added plus.

I sang the Brahms German Requiem in college and loved it; also Ives Three Harvest Home Chorales :tup, Stravinsky Symphony of Psalms, Beethoven's Ninth (mentioned earlier this week in a thread about Ruth Ellington Boatwright, Duke's sister, because her husband McHenry Boatwright was the soloist in that college performance, guest-conducted by Gunther Schuller!).

Really lovely piece we sang earlier this year: Puccini Messe di Gloria.

[A Lark Ascending]

Another great British choral work is Tippett's A Child of Our Time - which I understand is also performed much more frequently in the U.K. (and maybe also in Europe?), than it is here in the U.S. - which is a shame. Complex 20th Century harmonies, alternating with movements that are choral settings of traditional negro folk spirituals/hymns. Very powerful.

One of the most powerful concerts I ever attended was a performance of "A Child of our Time" on the day in the late-80s when the apartheid regime in South Africa introduced draconian reporting restrictions to hide their attempts at repression in the townships.

The piece seemed so immediate! I still recall the tears coming to my eyes as the choir sang 'Go down Moses, way down in Egypt land, tell old Pharaoh to let my people go!' In fact it gives me the shivers just thinking of it.

I heard the War Requiem in Coventry Cathedral on the 25th anniversary of its first performance there. Another deeply moving experience.

'Gerontius' was the first big choral piece I heard way back in 1976 at the Festival Hall. When the choir hit 'Praise to the Holiest in the Heights'....whow!!!!

There's a long amateur choral tradition in England going back to the 19thC and beyond. A great deal of the English choral repetoire comes out of that.

Another goody is Schoenberg's 'Gurrelieder'. Pre-atonal and serialism it sounds like an overcurdled Richard Strauss!

[Jim Alfredson]

Frank Martin "Mass For Double Choir" & "In Terra Pax"

[Rooster_Ties]

I've never cared all that much for the symphonies of Anton Bruckner (which, I gather, is what Bruckner's known best for - meaning his symphonies). BUT, I can tell you that Bruckner wrote some of THE most amazing choral music of any late 19th Century composer. His motets, in particular, are some of the most beautiful things I've ever sung, or ever heard sung.

And another choral composer I really love is Francis Poulenc. The Poulenc Gloria is great fun to sing and hear, and his shorter unaccompanied choral works (without orchestra, just chorus) are really amazing to sing. As a rule, I normally hate singing in French (such a difficult language to sing in), but I never pass up the chance to sing Poulenc. His music is difficult to learn, with lots of ambiguous harmonies, but well worth the extra effort.

And speaking of French composers, Claude Debussy wrote very little choral music (almost none), but his "Three Songs" (Chansons de Charles d'Orléans (3), song cycle for mixed choir, L. 92), is stunning. Again, I normally hate to sing in French, but love singing and hearing this one (three).

Edited March 17, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Spontooneous]

Ya gotta dig hanging out in a place where the owner gives a thumbs-up to Frank Martin. I love this bar.

Recently heard Vaughan Williams' "Dona Nobis Pacem." Unsettling and beautiful, and perfect for this moment in history.

Second the recommendations for Szymanowski.

[randyhersom]

The album of Nielsen choral works on Chandos is definitely worth hearing.

[king ubu]

ubu, sounds like the english term for what you describe is a Motet. That kind of music is often incredibly beautiful, and surprisingly difficult to sing at times. Early motets, especially, didn't follow all the musical rules about what intervals sounded (supposedly) pleasing, and which didn't -- so you get some very interesting harmonies going on there at times -- some as difficult to sing (and tune) as some 20th Century music.

On a related, but slightly different note -- I also sang in college in a Madrigal group, that sang Renaissance (1400-1600) and Baroque (1600-1750) era music. The group was usually only 10 to 14 voices, rarely with more than 2 or 3 (or maybe 4) voices on any one part. We also sang 'mixed' (meaning not all the basses in one section, or tenors in one section, etc...), so you really had to use your ear more. Madrigals were great fun to sing.

And (on another note), I sang in a barbershop quartet for a couple of years too. Talk about ear-training -- it helped me more than just about anything else, since each person in the quartet only sings their own part. I sang baritone in 'barbershop' - which I always felt was the most difficult part. The bass sang what are typically 'bass' parts, meaning the usually sang the roots of chords all the time. And the 'lead' (I guess you could call it the 2nd tenor part), always sang the melody. And the 'tenor' (meaning the really high part) always sang harmony parts above the melody (like Art Garfunkel does against Paul Simon's melody, or lead). Barbershop quartet music is REALLY corny, and gets really old quickly if you're just listening to it. But as a singer, it's GREAT fun to perform.

@Rooster: thanks for the link, yeah, sometimes the solution would be easy - I was indeed talking of "motets".

@everybody: thanks for the recommendations, I shall try to get hold of some of the things mentioned.

By the way, what's the word about the Hilliard's collaboration with Jan Garbarek? I used to like it, years ago (I only have the "Officium" release), but am very ambivalent about it nowadays.

Dowland (though we definitively leave choir territory here) would be another composer who's songs I like a lot! That disc with John Surman (on ECM New Series, too), I like pretty much. I also played "Come Heavy Sleep" with a friend who had some exams at the conservatory (he's the singer, I was on baritone sax). Beautiful music!

ubu