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By BillF
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BillF Mentor

BillF

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10 hours ago, soulpope said:

Johnny Griffin & Woody Shaw live at the Subway Colone/Germany 1986 ....

Yeah! Saw both Griffin and Shaw at about that time: Johnny at Manchester's Royal Exchange Theatre with Jimmy Deuchar, Slide Hampton, Dave Cliff, Peter Ind and Al Levitt, Woody at Ronnie Scott's with his own group.

mjzee Mentor

mjzee

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On 2/16/2021 at 2:02 PM, Dub Modal said:

Coleman's Intro to Harmolodics

Seriously?  I watched this thinking someone would actually explain Harmolodics, using complete, understandable sentences that led to a point, perhaps with some diagrams or musical examples, that would actually be instructive.  This film instead showed worshipful testimonies to Ornette (talk about a cult!), a lot of footage of people walking quickly, some dancing, some pithy aphorisms that tried to sound deep ("sound is everywhere," "music has no face," and the like), and Ornette disparaging prior musical systems but never actually explaining his own (which I was led to believe was the whole point of the film: "Coleman's Intro to Harmolodics").  Sad and disappointing.  There really seems to be no "there" there.

Dub Modal Experienced

Dub Modal

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9 hours ago, mjzee said:

Seriously?  I watched this thinking someone would actually explain Harmolodics, using complete, understandable sentences that led to a point, perhaps with some diagrams or musical examples, that would actually be instructive.  This film instead showed worshipful testimonies to Ornette (talk about a cult!), a lot of footage of people walking quickly, some dancing, some pithy aphorisms that tried to sound deep ("sound is everywhere," "music has no face," and the like), and Ornette disparaging prior musical systems but never actually explaining his own (which I was led to believe was the whole point of the film: "Coleman's Intro to Harmolodics").  Sad and disappointing.  There really seems to be no "there" there.

Ha, well it's definitely short on details. What I got out that video was exposure to that Tone Dialing album which was playing in the background throughout. I'd never heard it but was digging it the whole time. So I YT'd it as well. Interesting comment from someone on that Harmolodics video too about running into OC at an uptown train depot, with OC relating he moved uptown b/c he got jumped. Sad. 

Now if you'll excuse me I need to replenish the mild & honey on my OC shrine...

Rooster_Ties Proficient

Rooster_Ties

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10 hours ago, mjzee said:

Seriously?  I watched this thinking someone would actually explain Harmolodics, using complete, understandable sentences that led to a point, perhaps with some diagrams or musical examples, that would actually be instructive....

I’ve heard enough interview footage with Ornette and others similarly talking about his music (not tons, but at least a handful of different clips of Ornette himself), that this Tone Dialing promo piece was very much in line with the sorts of things I’d seen/heard before.

I agree, little of it makes any sense — in terms of describing the inner logic or ‘rules’ of Harmelodic music.  But strangely enough, there is a sort of similar quality (or flavor, if you like) to the types nebulous statements being said. No, none of it makes much actual sense — but (strangely) there is similar “sense” to it all.

It reminds me of Sun Ra’s descriptions of his own music (and “Music” with a capital “M”) — except Ornette’s explanations feel more consistent, more “interlocking” if you will.

Again, I don’t know how much of it really can be made sense of — but Ornette’s world seems like there’s a bit more of a conceptual-continuity or “through line” to it (as opposed to Sun Ra’s rhetoric, which feels a bit more theatrical).

Ornette’s seems more like the interviews I’ve seen with John Cage, who I always felt was as much or more a philosopher, as a composer. Clearly Ornette was a very strong composer, but I think there was some kind of philosophical component to Ornette’s approach too. I do NOT pretend to understand it, but I do have a strong sense that he was describing something that actually made sense to him.

Maybe Ra’s rhetoric made sense to him too, I don’t know — but Ornette seems to have bought what he himself was selling (at least to those interested in buying) — not unlike Cage.

None of that is meant to disparage Ra. But I always felt as if Ra’s spiel came with a wink and a nod, but Ornette’s didn’t.

Good video, as far as it goes. I didn’t expect any more than I got, though I too would LOVE to get a more detailed analysis of the actual musical theory behind Harmelodics — because it sure FEELS like there could be one, even if Ornette can’t (or at least wouldn’t and didn’t) ever talk about it in any concrete ways.

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