This or That?

[BillF]

Randy Weston

Scott Hamilton or Harry Allen?

[Milestones]

I vote for Randy Weston.

And earlier, I take Lovano over Liebman.

Also, Chandler over Hammett.

 

Keith Jarrett or Hank Jones?

 

[JSngry]

10 minutes ago, BillF said:

Randy Weston

Scott Hamilton or Harry Allen?

Hamilton. Allen gives me the willies, Hamilton really tries to say something in his own way.

High Bird or Sober Bird?

 

[BillF]

18 minutes ago, Milestones said:

I vote for Randy Weston.

And earlier, I take Lovano over Liebman.

Also, Chandler over Hammett.

 

Keith Jarrett or Hank Jones?

 

Hank Jones

Joe Farnsworth or Kenny Washington?

[HutchFan]

23 minutes ago, BillF said:

Hank Jones

Joe Farnsworth or Kenny Washington?

Washington for me.

 

Buster Williams or Cecil McBee?  (IMO, that's devilishly difficult choice if there ever was one)

 

 

38 minutes ago, JSngry said:

High Bird or Sober Bird?

I bet Bird was high most of the time, even when he wasn't "high."  I remember reading a story in Stan Getz's biography: Near the end of his life, he abruptly ran from the studio without any explanation.  He later admitted that he'd NEVER recorded any music sober. None!  This had been the first time he'd ever tried to -- and it completely freaked him out.  ... Wouldn't surprise me one bit if Parker's experience of the studio was the same.  Again, not saying he was always falling down drunk/stoned -- but always "tight."

 

 

 

 

[JSngry]

7 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

I bet Bird was high most of the time, even when he wasn't "high."  I remember reading a story in Stan Getz's biography: Near the end of his life, he abruptly ran from the studio without any explanation.  He later admitted that he'd NEVER recorded any music sober. None!  This had been the first time he'd ever tried to -- and it completely freaked him out.  ... Wouldn't surprise me one bit if Parker's experience of the studio was the same.  Again, not saying he was always falling down drunk/stoned -- but always "tight."

Maybe...I keep reading about how Bird would go through periods of really REALLY trying to stay clean and live clean. Like right out of Camarillo, when he first moved in with Chan...

Now what that meant in terms of traditional definitions of "sober", I don't know. some people would say that weed is perfectly sober, that it's just medicine, wheres your 12-Steppers, no.

So, I don't know. And since i don't know...I don't know. I'll just take Bird, period, because even when he was clearly in a bad way, he cut through. Bird always cut through in a meaningful way.

[HutchFan]

7 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Maybe...I keep reading about how Bird would go through periods of really REALLY trying to stay clean and live clean. Like right out of Camarillo, when he first moved in with Chan...

Now what that meant in terms of traditional definitions of "sober", I don't know. some people would say that weed is perfectly sober, that it's just medicine, wheres your 12-Steppers, no.

So, I don't know. And since i don't know...I don't know. I'll just take Bird, period, because even when he was clearly in a bad way, he cut through. Bird always cut through in a meaningful way.

True.  Seems he always sounded good.  High as a kite or sober as a judge.  It did not matter.  

Well, maybe except for that one session just before he went to Camarillo.  But even then ...

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

yes, even then...

and even during that session where he plays "My Heart Belongs To daddy", after Pree was dead...oh my god...

I really, seriously, deeply have come to believe that we as a society are "genius-happy". Everybody want to feel good about shit, so everybody has a chance at being a "genius". Sure, why not?

Because that's bullshit, that's why not. Genius and intrinsic worth, not the same thing, not even, not ever.

Bird gets "genius", by any standard.

[BillF]

IIRC the notes to Bird with the Herd (live recording made in Kansas  City) say that he always cleaned up when going to visit his mother, as on this occasion, which results in his being on brilliant form. (Yes, he's on brilliant form - can't vouch for the rest.)

The only recordings when he obviously isn't in full possession of his faculties are the 1946 "Lover Man" session and, to a lesser extent, Charlie Parker Plays Cole Porter, when he had a very short time left to live.

 

 

[HutchFan]

I'm still mulling the Ellington-in-the-70s idea that Jim proposed.  I'm not so sure that I'd pick the 70s over the 50s or 60s.  But there WAS something there, wasn't there?  The Ellington Orchestra was different in the 70s.  And I suppose it must have had something to do with both Hodges and Strayhorn being gone.  Strayhorn's music always had a refined finish that Ellington's didn't have -- and Hodges made one of the prettiest sounds ever.  (And Hamilton gone too!  So streamlined.  So well-scrubbed and fresh.  Can't forget him.)  With all those departures, it's almost like Ellington's band circled back around to what it was at the very beginning.  Much more rough-and-tumble, a bit ragged around the edges (even more than it already was!) -- but almost always in a pleasing way.  Seems like you get more unvarnished Ellington because those other voices were gone.  Of course, Cootie was there and Carney too.  But they weren't pretty like Hodges or clean like Hamilton or polished like Strayhorn.  Cootie was doing his own gorgeous, rough-edged Bubber thing and Carney was the ever-present THERE, like gravity or the earth underfoot. 

So... Ellington in the 70s.  For those four years, I'm in.  

And, as far as this listener is concerned, all those writers -- Collier, Teachout, et al -- who say that Ellington never progressed after the 40s (or 50s or whatever) are full of shit.  Duke kept making vital music until the very end.

 

 

Now, has anyone chosen between Buster Williams and Cecil McBee?

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

If/When the Bird In LA thing gets a release, that, what was his name, Zazatranian? Ranch jam session...the last thing on that (which has yet to see an even bootleg release AFAIK) is Bird and somebody else, the last two left standing (probably literally) and Bird is obviously WAY high, not palying any tune or changes or anything, just pre instinct/relex...and it's beautiful, it speak, it may or may not be "rational", but it's musical. It's truth.

 

2 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

I'm still mulling the Ellington-in-the-70s idea that Jim proposed.  I'm not so sure that I'd pick the 70s over the 50s or 60s.  But there WAS something there, wasn't there?  The Ellington Orchestra was different in the 70s.  And I suppose it must have had something to do with both Hodges and Strayhorn being gone.  Strayhorn's music always had a refined finish that Ellington's didn't -- and Hodges made one of the prettiest sounds ever.  (And Hamilton gone too!  So streamlined.  So well-scrubbed and fresh.  Can't forget him.)  With all those departures, it's almost like Ellington's band circled back around to what it was at the very beginning.  Much more rough-and-tumble, a bit ragged around the edges (even more than it already was!) -- but almost always in a pleasing way.  Seems like you get more unvarnished Ellington because those other voices were gone.  Of course, Cootie was there and Carney too.  But they weren't pretty like Hodges or clean like Hamilton or polished like Strayhorn.  Cootie was doing his own gorgeous, rough-edged Bubber thing and Carney was the ever-present THERE, like gravity or the earth underfoot. 

It was harder to keep a band together as well...cats got old and either died or retired, well, who are you going to get to play that schedule for that money? Not an easy undertaking, not for any meaningful duration. Maybe the very last band, where the Houstonians began to come in, that might have taken root (and di, posthumously), but...too late for Duke to really get into that group of personalities.

I try to imagine MErcer trying to keep that shit even halfway together...Duke getting more and ore...eccentric, eccentric, visible, and writing at least as much as ever and getting more urgent about it. Mercerhad his hands full, no boubt, and god bless him for doing it.

What I like about those last Duke bands was like they sounded like Archie Shpp projects, only with Duke writing.  Rogh, ragged-jagged BLUES, a very Black Essence with no punches pulled. No time for ambiguity, time was closing in faster and faster. It's remarkable music, really, and yeah, band is "ragged" but...NEEDED to be.

Those two Squatty Roo boots - Rugged Jungle & Last Visit To Paris...not easy listening. Nor should it be. But the saga doesn't end until it ends. Gotta deal with that or else deal in wishful thinking.

[HutchFan]

18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

If/When the Bird In LA thing gets a release, that, what was his name, Zazatranian? 

I didn't realize these guys were doing reissues... 

 

 

18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Those two Squatty Roo boots - Rugged Jungle & Last Visit To Paris...not easy listening. Nor should it be. But the saga doesn't end until it ends. Gotta deal with that or else deal in wishful thinking.

I've not heard those.  I guess I need to get them.

 

 

And again: 

Buster Williams or Cecil McBee?

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

THOSE guys, yeah!

As for the Squatty Roo things...they are clearly boots and people will rightfully complain about the cassette-grade sound quality. So if you have another source, by all means, go there for it.

But otherwise, that's where that lives. Not pretty, but...real.

[Peter Friedman]

15 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

I didn't realize these guys were doing reissues... 

 

 

I've not heard those.  I guess I need to get them.

 

 

And again: 

Buster Williams or Cecil McBee?

 

Buster Williams for me

 

Percy Heath  or Milt Hinton

[Rabshakeh]

1 minute ago, Peter Friedman said:

Buster Williams for me

 

Percy Heath  or Milt Hinton

Heath! You can't argue with both the MJQ and the Heath Brothers (both before and after the formal "band").

Okay: Bob Dylan or Hank Williams?

[JSngry]

14 minutes ago, JSngry said:

As for the Squatty Roo things...they are clearly boots and people will rightfully complain about the cassette-grade sound quality. So if you have another source, by all means, go there for it.

Oh yeah, the Paris gig really is the last band. The Houstonian contingent is on board and Duke is trying to make the change. But hell, he was close to dead as it was, so...

[HutchFan]

1 minute ago, Rabshakeh said:

Heath! You can't argue with both the MJQ and the Heath Brothers (both before and after the formal "band").

Okay: Bob Dylan or Hank Williams?

As much as I love Hank, I gotta go with Dylan.

 

Cannonball with Victor Feldman or Cannonball with Zawinul?

 

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, HutchFan said:

Cannonball with Victor Feldman or Cannonball with Zawinul?

Zawinul, hands down. Feldman played the gig really well, but Zawinul made an impact, changed the music. The piano chair, hell that band, was never he same after.

Frank Rosolino at his most excessive, or Jimmy Cleveland at his most excessive?

(and no, Bill Watrous is not an option!  )

[Larry Kart]

Rosolino vs. Cleveland. Dead heat for me. In any case, their-rapid fire approaches were rather different, and in the right mood I like them both.

OTOH, Cleveland could be lovely on a ballad ("If You Could See Me Now" and "Ballad of the Sad Young Men" with Gil Evans) while I have no memory of Frank on a ballad.

Agree on Watrous. Yeesh.

Jimmy Rowles or John Lewis (as pianists only).

[JSngry]

13 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Agree on Watrous. Yeesh.

I would be remiss if I did not also add that bill Watrous made one of the greatest Avant-Garde Easy Listening (TTK probably has his own category for it) records ever.

Haircut still "Yeesh". Trombone playing, unchanged. But that playing, in this particular context,,,I'm a big fan of this record, for that.

Seriously!

[Larry Kart]

Just now, JSngry said:

I would be remiss if I did not also add that bill Watrous made one of the greatest Avant-Garde Easy Listening (TTK probably has his own category for it) records ever.

Haircut still "Yeesh". Trombone playing, unchanged. But that playing, in this particular context,,,I'm a big fan of this record, for that.

Seriously!

Could you post a link?

[HutchFan]

19 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Jimmy Rowles or John Lewis (as pianists only).

An impossible choice!

Without thinking about it too much -- because I love Rowles so much -- I'll go with John Lewis.

 

James Moody on sax or James Moody on flute?

 

[Larry Kart]

8 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

An impossible choice!

Without thinking about it too much -- because I love Rowles so much -- I'll go with John Lewis.

 

James Moody on sax or James Moody on flute?

 

On tenor.

 

Lars Gullin or Serge Chaloff.

[HutchFan]

3 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

On tenor.

Fair enough!

But you've got to offer up another pair now.   

Just did.

[JSngry]

10 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Could you post a link?

There's only ever been one cut on YouTube, but it's pretty reprsentaive of the arrangements, if not songs.

 

As the saying goes, it's not going to be for everybody. But I have no shame. Standards, yes.. Shame, no!