What a good first instrument for a child?

[Hardbopjazz]

When your kid wants to learn to play something, what's a good instrument to start with?

I also want to keep her interested for a long time and don't want to see her giving up on learning.

[Joe G]

I would strongly recommend letting her try out whatever instrument she's drawn to.

[Hardbopjazz]

She wants to play piano, but I feel her hands are too small right now. She's only 4 1/2. I guess this will the instrument since she bangs away everytime she's over grandma. I'll just have to bring my piano over to my house now.

Do teachers take so young a student? I started at 10.

Edited March 28, 2004 by Hardbopjazz

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Children of 4 1/2 almost certainly don't know enough to make an educated decision. There are also very few choices that a child that age could or should play - wind instruments are pretty much out except for perhaps recorder. The fingers and hands are too small to cover the holes. The teeth are not right either. Best to wait until adult teeth are in before starting a wind instrument.

I'd say piano is the best instrument for starting. I started when I was 3 and still haven't learned everything yet. No matter what a child might want to investigate later, the foundation established by the piano in terms of pitch relationships and hopefully the additional training in reading notation will be a great asset. Piano is good for starting because the notes pop right out when you press the right button and they sound good and are in tune. No embouchure, no air flow, no covering holes, no guessing where on the fingerboard that note is. The progress rate can be very rapid - from single note melodies to both hands, to chords. Also, the fixed pitch of the piano helps to solidify the absolute pitch that all children are born with and starting very early is crucial in this regard, according to the scientific studies.

Violin is possible (they make tiny tiny scale instruments) but there are the drawbacks of intonation - which is greatly improved if the child has piano background. The other logical option is a percussion instrument, but I would still recommend the piano. All my percussion students who have piano experience progress much faster than those who don't.

There are plenty of piano teachers who will work with students that young.

Mike

[Hardbopjazz]

I guess then that 4 1/2 isn't too young for piano. She does have a good ear for music. She's already been able to play part of the melodies to tunes she hears.

[7/4]

I started with piano when I was 7. Briefly on Clarinet for a "while" a year or two later. My parents decided to stop Clarinet, because two instruments were too much for me.

I'll have to ask them about that.

Also, the fixed pitch of the piano helps to solidify the absolute pitch that all children are born with and starting very early is crucial in this regard, according to the scientific studies.

All children are born with absolute pitch? So from birth, they can sing 12 tone equal temperament, a man made tuning system that, historically, is a recent development?

With all due respect, I know you're a Jazz historian, but I've been working with tuning systems, the harmonic series (aka Just Intonation) and microtones for 11 years and I'm not too sure this is true!

I've even heard radio programs where Johnny Reinhart of the American Festival of Microtonal Music in NYC demonstrating how children singing nursery rhymes are singing simple harmonic series intervals.

Joe G? Some thoughts?

[7/4]

Maybe a piano would be good for all the reasons listed above.

A synth could work for a couple of years.

I thought of suggesting a huge Ludwig drum set with double bass drums because you live in NY and I live in NJ. Sort of like a John Bonham set, but with double bass. And lots and lots of cymbals.

[bertrand]

I was thinking of piano as well for my 4-year old, but I only have room for a little electric keyboard - seems like kind of a shame.

With the grotesque prices of houses in the DC area these days (how do people live?), it doesn't look like we'll be leaving our townhouse anytime soon.

Bertrand.

[Nate Dorward]

Our daughter started on piano at 4. She's 6 now & still playing & doing very well (pounding out simple Bartok Mikrokosmos stuff, bourees, &c). I think piano's the best place to start, really, for all the reasons outlined above--it's a good grounding to have even if the kid eventually shifts to a different instrument; the physical layout of the keyboard makes music theory much more obvious than, say, on a wind instrument; the music you make sounds nice immediately, unlike on violin where the first few years aren't pretty.

In addition to piano, some kind of elementary voice training is very useful, even just participatory singing with the choir in the local church. My wife sings a lot (part of the choir in our church) so Anne gets a lot of exposure this way.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Where do you make the connection that absolute pitch is equivalent to equal temperament? These are not the same thing. And while the young children probably won't be able to demonstrate all the facets of absolute pitch at the start (I didn't - not till I was in junior high school, despite my best efforts), it is the early years that are vital to the development of the part of the brain that controls absolute pitch. Once the "window" closes it is difficult - perhaps impossible. Of course, if the only instrument you hear and play is a 17-note-per-octave harmonium and I tell you again and again that the first four notes are Z, Q, 5, and ~, you most likely won't function the same as someone from the 12-tone A,B,C world. If your home piano is tuned in Werckmeister III, I'd say you'd learn that. If it's tuned 2 tones flat, maybe you'll learn that (if you aren't exposed to anything else). But the scientists are saying that early musical training is needed or else you will lose the ability that you were born with. Learning a tonal language (Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.) is another thing that develops the absolute pitch skill.

Here are a few articles addressing the research to which I referred.

http://www.news.wisc.edu/releases/5819.html

http://www.boston.com/globe/search/stories...ense/041497.htm

http://gabrchen.tripod.com/Physics_36.htm

http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/rightnote.html

http://www.menc.org/networks/genmus/litarticles.html

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s593744.htm

I'm sure there are more out there. (BTW, there is also mention in the menc.org article about the increased development of the part of the brain that controls touch perception among those who started keyboard training before age 7.)

BTW, "jazz historian" is not my day gig. I am a music educator teaching beginning instrumental music in the public schools. And even the kids I teach don't get to me (age 9) until the very end or after the closing of the window. So getting them playing the piano before that is very important.

Mike

[JSngry]

Piano definitely, and some percussion too. Not necessarily drum set or anything like that, just a hand drum will do. And if she like to dance, get her some dance lessons, or at the least, don't discourage her from dancing anytime and anyway she wants to, even to the point of dance lessons, if you can find a scene that's not stickuptheass "formal".

A "whole body" aproach to developing musically is something I've long thought about formulating, but alas, my lack of what I think would be the required depth of knowledge regarding the finer points of pedagogical theory and methodlogy intimidates me from doing so. But if a kid gets in "on the ground floor" with the root instruments of melody (and along those lines, let her sing all she wants to, and encourage her to incorporate her singing into her musical lessons), harmony, and rhythm, and makes, not just an "intellectual" connection between all that, but a concrete, "executable" physical one as well, how can they lose?

I'm inspired by the various comments on African (and other) cultures that music is not a seperate activity, something to be done in a set time and a set place in a set way, but is instead part of the fabric of everyday life. The best musicians that I've known (and known of) seem to be in this zone as well. For them, life is music, and vice-versa. I have no illusions of turning suburban kids into African villagers, or of every kid who studies music becoming deeply intuitive about the vibrational structures of the cosmos, but I do think that the earlier that people get exposed to the fact that life is, when you break it down, vibrational rhythm, and so is music, the greater their capacity for creating and appreciating beauty throughout their life, even in mundane matters, will be heightened, and a lot of the stress and frustration that stems form living "out of synch" can be reduced. Harmody, melody, and rhythm - piano, voice, and drum.

Get 'em young and teach 'em right, I say.

[RDK]

Anything but the drums!

[Hardbopjazz]

She wants the piano, so that's what it will be.

Now are there teachers that will be willing to teach them at this age? There is a music school 2 blooks from me. I went in there, and he said he doesn't take any new students unless they are over 7.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

A special music school might not have dedicated their resources to teach younger kids, but you could investigate "kindermusik" programs - not necessarily to enroll but because they would have knowledge of teachers who do work with students that age. Or ask other parents, etc. Since you play, you could just give a friendly introduction (three-note songs, where the fingers go, echoing, etc.) - but I wouldn't let that go too long because you are too familiar to her. Sometimes you can find a summer program that introduces kids to piano. I've seen a lot of success with that. You would be best off with a teacher who has worked with that age before. You can't treat a 4-year-old the same as you would a 10-year-old beginner. Is your child in pre-school? Are they doing any music activity there?

http://www.kindermusik.com/

http://www.pianoiseasy.com/showpage.cfm?page=school

http://pianoeducation.org/pnotchld.html#Begin

There are good ideas in the last - what your child needs to know (numbers 1-5, alphabet A-G, being able to sit and focus for 15 minutes, etc.).

I don't know where in NY you are, but in the city there are a bazillion possibilities:

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/urban/guides/f...gs/lessons2.htm

Hopefully you can find at least *something* nearby.

Mike

And just a P.S. on the "music as part of everyday life" - YES! Kids should play music on their own, with their friends, with their parents, with their parents' friends. All the time. Reserving performance for the "annual recital" is counterproductive. At my school we just finished doing weekly TV broadcasts (closed circuit) of student performances to celebrate "Music In Our Schools" month. The more opportunities to perform, the better. April is "Jazz Appreciation" month so I've got that to plan next. And ditto for the opportunities to hear and see others perform. Kids need to get out to those free concerts in the park. And they need to meet musicians. Then they will have this positive association that music is enjoyable. As opposed to the hour of Hanon in solitude every day.

http://www.smithsonianjazz.org/jam/jam_start.asp

Edited March 28, 2004 by Michael Fitzgerald

[JSngry]

Mike, do you see any benefit, or potential for same, in incorporating drumming (and even dancing) into early music instruction/exposure? I'd value your opinion on this.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

It's not my particular specialty but all good school music programs do incorporate movement and percussion to great benefit. This has been going on for ages in the teaching of the three most important music educators of the 20th century: Carl Orff, Emile Jacques Dalcroze, and Zoltán Kodály (yes, he of Woody Shaw fame). I'd say most teacher training programs in colleges address these and while not every public school general music teacher is a certified specialist in one of the methods, they at least borrow things from each of the methods.

http://www.kodaly-inst.hu/baltart.html

Kodály is so damned persuasive and eloquent - gotta love him, even just for the quotes. Here's one relevant to the thread at hand:

"Once when Kodály was asked about the right time to start music education, he answered: 'Nine months before the birth of the child,' moreover 'nine months before the birth of the mother.'"

In the Orff-Schulwerk method, percussion has a large role, as does movement.

http://www.aosa.org/about/default.asp

And Dalcroze involves more movement. (Yes, eurhythmics of Annie Lennox fame).

http://www.dalcroze.com/what_is_eurhythmics.htm

So, in my school, all students are singing, moving, playing percussion, learning notation and solfege, getting some history and cultural background with their general music teacher once a week. Those who work with me get instrumental training as an additional part of their music experience.

Mike

[Nate Dorward]

Yeah it'd be nice for more dance & rhythm to get integrated into learning music, not just pitch. I do a lot of clapping games with Anne & work hard on her ability to read & hear rhythms. But I don't dance & can't help there, though she does do a little ballet in school.

I found a private teacher who as long as the kid could physically play the piano comfortably & had the physical & mental ability to start, was willing to take kids who were very young. Anne is lucky because she's very coordinated & can concentrate hard.

I should say that it takes a lot of fortitude on a paren'ts part too--you've got to concentrate hard too, trying not to make the practice sessions gruelling conflicts-of-will but still getting work done. It's difficult for me because as a pianist I'm almost entirely self-taught because my parents had no stomach for that kind of thing--so I picked it up later, on my own. I've never had parents commanding me to practice or the like. But with Anne I simply decided it was as important as getting her to read & write, & so it's more formalized.

The point about making it a social occasion is a good one--face it, playing any instrument solo isn't half as pleasurable as playing in a group. I look forward to when Anne can accompany others. We often do singalongs at the piano often (you should hear a 6-year-old singing "Peel Me a Grape"), & she really loves singing with her own playing, too.

[7/4]

Where do you make the connection that absolute pitch is equivalent to equal temperament?

I missunderstood your usage of it.

I'll check the links in a few days when I have more time. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

BTW, "jazz historian" is not my day gig. I am a music educator teaching beginning instrumental music in the public schools.

I didn't know that, but I do know I didn't look very closely at your web site. We're local, sorry if you thought I was attacking you.

[Shrdlu]

There's a simple answer to the original question. Get the child the instrument that they passionately want to play. Ideally, the child will have heard one or more heroes on that instrument, and will be very keen to learn it. If not, there's little point in making them learn any instrument. When the keen-ness is there, it will get them through the tedious learning stages, which aren't exactly 100% fun.

Many's the time I've heard a child (even in their teens) play in a dull manner, with obviously little or no real motivation to do much. I ask them who their favorite player is, and they always say that they don't have any in such cases. That's really sad. "Have you ever heard so-and-so play?" "Nope."

Don't think that I don't want to encourage a music student. I DO want to encourage. But I can spot when there's no real interest.

Young ones should be exposed to some brilliant players from the classical and jazz worlds - live where possible, and on recordings. The TV and radio won't help much, if at all, so it's up to us parents to provide the goods. Let's show them that one doesn't have to limit oneself to Britney Sprears and Justin Timberlake, and all the other shallow "pop" rubbish. Play them some David Oistrakh (violin) and Louis Armstrong, and Miles Davis, etc.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Sorry, but what the child passionately wants has almost nothing to do with reality. At 4 1/2 a child has no instrumental heroes. At 4 1/2 a child has no judgment for this kind of thing. Even older kids make stupid decisions based on factors like "it's shiny" and "what my friend plays" and "the size of the case," let alone the "boy/girl instrument" thing. You expect a 4 1/2 year old to be more mature than that?

And most importantly, at 4 1/2 almost all the instruments are inappropriate, for reasons I outlined in my first post.

I mean, it's a nice sentiment, but it's not rooted in the real world.

Were this a kid in 7th grade who actually had a good background in what the instruments are, how they work, how they sound, what physical attributes are helpful or not, a full set of adult teeth, fingers, and lungs, etc., then it would be a different story.

Mike

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Great comment above Michael. While not musically inclined myself (and will leave any real educated commentary to those of you in the real know), my one feeling is that the piano still "sounds good" when played bad, if you know what I mean. There is a bit of built-in positive affirmation with that instrument versus others - that is sooo important for getting the kid involved. When our daughter first started to play the recorder this year her few years of piano greatly enhanced her ability but that sound that comes out of that thing was not even up to her tastes, and she is eight.

I'd much rather be in the kitchen listening to her roll out some new left hand boogie-woogie followed by "Fur Elise" (as was this morning) than some attempts at squealing horse hair!

[king ubu]

I started off with the recorder at age 6. Then around 11 switched to clarinet, later (17, 18?) to tenor. For me it worked, though I would like to be able to play a little bit of piano.

However, I guess formal musical education here might be differing from what you have in the US. Moving/dancing never really played a part, neither did rhythm (except for trying to learn to count whilst playing - but that's a thing you do in classical music here. I never really found out how to do it, but as I never had any problems with rhythmic stuff, I don't care too much. I mean, I can figure out anything that I can't read immediately, so that's not a big issue).

In my opinion, the whole music/dancing/singing thing should be integrated into school, BUT done by professionals. The problem here in Switzerland is that you do sing at school, but with your regular teacher, who might be able to sing, might not. Then he might be able to transport his abilities or not.

Best would be to have children learn playing/dancing/singing right from the start, begin with percussion instruments, the recorder, or whatever might be useful, and also train the ear - that's one thing I still have problems with, as I never really learned that.

ubu

[Joe G]

I mean, it's a nice sentiment, but it's not rooted in the real world.

4 1/2 is pretty young, and the point you make about a child not being able to physically handle most instruments is correct. But there are examples of kids gravitating to and eventually excelling at a particular instrument at very young ages. I wouldn't discount what a child wants to play. I didn't know anything about guitars or guitarists when I started at 8, but it turned out to be my instrument for sure.

[Nate Dorward]

Agree with Michael F about the matter of choice of instrument. If it'd been up to Anne she'd be playing guitar or ukulele at 4-1/2 (she finds the instruments fascinating) but there was no way she could have even fretted the strings properly at the time!

Recorder is good, that's actually how I started out (eventually, as I said, shifting to piano on my own), with the bunch of students under Priscilla Evans in Halifax (she had virtually every kid in town playing recorder during her years as a teacher).

[Hardbopjazz]

Would it be a good idea to have her play more then one instrument at this early age? It's going to be piano. I did find a private teacher that works with all ages.