Bud Shank/Bob Cooper Mosaic Select

[sal]

This one seems to have generated the least discussion out of the entire series. Has anyone heard this music or received this set? Is it worth taking the plunge?

[mgraham333]

Some discussion here

[wesbed]

I enjoyed the Bud Shank Mosaic Complete very much (although it has received mixed reviews on this board and the old BNBB). I don't yet have the Shank/Cooper Select and can't seem to get a good 'feeling' for it. Yeah, would it be a set worth buying? Probably. I'd like to read some more reviews on the board from those who've purchased/listened to the set. In another thread, which I can't currently find, somebody wrote that the Shank/Cooper Select contains some boring 'strings' sets.

Edit-

Here is the link to the other thread: >click here<

Edited April 2, 2004 by wesbed

[wesbed]

Since reading some negative reviews of the 2nd disk of the Shank/Cooper Select, I had to listen to that disk first. I've listened to only the 2nd disk so far. It is definitely a Bud Shank / West Coast type of sound. The 2nd disk, containing the (B1, B2) sides, the horns with strings, features some very stylish/sublime playing.

The listener needs to be in the right mood to enjoy this set (the 2nd disk). I don't like to use this word to describe jazz music, but, the 2nd disk has music that borders on being relaxing. If you're in the mood for some hard, raw jazz playing, this is the wrong disk to start with. However, I listened to this disk while sitting at home on a warm spring afternoon in Tucson. The music fit the day very well. I did enjoy it.

>Shank/Cooper Select<

Edited April 15, 2004 by wesbed

[Tony Pusey]

Well, I like Shank and I liked this select! And I know this is subjective, but it is, along with the Brookmeyer, one of the most played selects in this domicile. Perhaps because so little of it was known in advance. (though perhaps Wesbed is right about CD2) I am one of those who get very happy when these Pacific Jazz sets see the light of day.

[wesbed]

Well, I like Shank and I liked this select! And I know this is subjective, but it is, along with the Brookmeyer, one of the most played selects in this domicile. Perhaps because so little of it was known in advance. (though perhaps Wesbed is right about CD2) I am one of those who get very happy when these Pacific Jazz sets see the light of day.

I like Shank too. I enjoyed the Bud Shank Mosaic Complete box very much. He sounds so... 'Bud Shank ish.'

I've heard only the 2nd disk of the Shank/Cooper Select so far. I purchased too many other Mosaics at the same time that I purchased the Shank/Cooper Select.

You make a good point about Pacific Jazz. I look forward to future Mosaic releases of Pacific Jazz titles. It's probably due to the West Coast thing, but Pacific Jazz titles, from what I've experienced, seem to offer a very easy-going, nice-flowing, yet grooving & swinging type of sound.

I blame the warm & friendly climate of Southern California for creating these pleasant and soulful sounds.

Edited April 17, 2004 by wesbed

[Tony Pusey]

Well Wesbed, perhaps the reason I like this stuff, because Sweden definately does not have a warm and friendly climate!

[DrJ]

I'll definitely pick up the Shank/Cooper and honestly I'm expecting I'll enjoy it more than the Shank Mosaic, mainly due to Cooper's presence...I like BLOWIN' COUNTRY a lot, if that's any indication. Older Shank I enjoy but do definitely have to be in the right mood to listen to that stuff...and probably as I've said before it's one of the lowest ranked personally out of a list of about 40 Mosaics I own, seriously lacking in my view in the heart and soul category (isolated contributions notwithstanding).

The thing is, once you hear Shank from later in his career it's really hard to go back and listen to what I think is a really pale imitation of someone's full potential. I's not just me: even Shank himself pretty much has said over and over again in articles I've read that he was never fully satisfied with his playing in these early years, feeling he hadn't really matured yet. He also felt he was greatly hindered by being a multi-reedist and feels his improvisational playing suffered greatly as result of that and doing so much studio work.

This is NOT to say that there's still not lots to enjoy from his PJ era, and again I do revisit it when in the right mood - obviously, as I have his first Mosaic and will be picking up this latest one.

So this isn't an anti-Shank thing, but if you are intrigued by his earlier recordings, do check out his later stuff which has so much more fire and teeth to it - stuff like I TOLD YOU SO (Candid), which is outstanding stuff.

[wesbed]

Older Shank I enjoy but do definitely have to be in the right mood to listen to that stuff...and probably as I've said before it's one of the lowest ranked personally out of a list of about 40 Mosaics I own, seriously lacking in my view in the heart and soul category (isolated contributions notwithstanding).

The thing is, once you hear Shank from later in his career it's really hard to go back and listen to what I think is a really pale imitation of someone's full potential.

This jazz thing. It grows along with itself. The players grow and mature, sometimes getting better and sometimes not.

Yes, I read that, in Bud's own words, he believes his playing is better recently than in the years when the songs on the Bud Shank Mosaic Complete box were initially recorded.

I own the Bud Shank Mosaic Complete box. This set of tunes has kept me entertained on many an evening. What I like most about the set, though, when looking back to it, is that it educated me on who Bud Shank was/is, where he came from, and how his sound developed. After being familiar with the original Bud Shank Mosaic, I started listening to the Shank/Cooper Select and said, to myself, "Yeah, that's Bud Shank, alright." It was very enjoyable to recognize Shank and his trademark alto during the first few notes from Shank's horn on the Shank/Cooper Select.

The music of jazz. The music and the history surrounding it. The music grows, evolves, changes, becomes familiar, twists, turns, and continues to grow. When you can acquire a feel for a little of the history of a certain artist, such as that presented by the Bud Shank Mosaic Complete, it makes everything you hear afterwards, from said artist, that much more enjoyable.

[Late]

The thing is, once you hear Shank from later in his career it's really hard to go back and listen to what I think is a really pale imitation of someone's full potential. It's not just me: even Shank himself pretty much has said over and over again in articles I've read that he was never fully satisfied with his playing in these early years, feeling he hadn't really matured yet. He also felt he was greatly hindered by being a multi-reedist and feels his improvisational playing suffered greatly as result of that and doing so much studio work.

I hear where you're coming from, but I guess I'd have to respectfully disagree with most of these arguments. I've often thought the very opposite in regard to the "paler imitation" idea. I actually find that later Shank recordings are more homogenous — with the almost-predictable "fire" (a la Cannonball or Sonny Stitt) of a neo-bop date, and lack the character that Shank actually did create — but in hindsight is vocally not proud of — from his Pacific Jazz years.

I think Shank's argument regarding the restrictions he felt while with Pacific Jazz runs along the lines of: Bock wanted him to play flute (and double on tenor and baritone) because this seemed to attract a larger audience — particularly as the flute/oboe combination with Bob Cooper had garnered some popular success. Well, I don't know. He did have a fair amount of alto space to stretch out on (as the Mosaic makes clear), and I don't necessarily think that Bock's fingerprint for any specific kind of restrained alto improvisation is present. Instead, I think Shank's own ideas of what he should record at that time make up the largest determining factor for what got recorded. I think that, now, Shank doesn't particularly care for what he might consider effete, or delicate, playing from those earlier years, while — though he might not want to consider such an angle — this very style of playing (which was not without imagination) created its own niche at the time, positing a valuable alternative for listeners to contemporary players recording in New York. And, besides, there's some fine flute playing from those years!

I met, and actually had a chance to play with, Shank in 1988. (This was a high school "All-State" jazz band, and Shank was the featured guest. He took all the alto solos — which was fine with me, actually — and rehearsed the saxophone section for a day.) And, yes, he even brought up the "I didn't want to play the flute" frustration tale then. But, the fact of the matter is, that flute playing brought in a fair amount of bread for him! Personal business decisions were often at play here. So, even in hindsight — though he seems to wish he had developed a harder "East Coast" edge to his playing — I think it's not that he was under-developed as an improviser, but that outside (meaning essentially economic) forces became a strong influence in how he played, and what instrument he played.

The first surfing soundtrack on the Mosaic, I think, is a perfect example. Who else — of those recording in California at the time — could have recorded this? Buddy Collette? Probably not, at least not with equivalent results. Herb Geller? Maybe, but perhaps not with the same sense of tasteful reservation. That quartet, with Billy Bean's guitar playing making an essential contribution, was an important, if brief, moment in the music — one that seems not an imitation of any other quartet, but a modest, and at times quiet, development of one facet of improvised (jazz) music.

Shank's Pacific Jazz recordings I think do require a certain mood to be effective, and if one only wants to hear, say, resonances of Moanin' in the albums they play, Shank simply won't cut it. And that's fine. But, more importantly, I think Shank's own feelings about his playing when he was younger unfortunately discredit the very inventiveness that he sees lacking in that period. Is an artist the best judge of their own work? It seems that the answer should always be "yes," but perhaps in this case past and peripheral regrets have somewhat obscured this artists's judgment of his own work.

Edited April 17, 2004 by Late

[garthsj]

I would agree with everything that LATE has to say about Bud Shank. I have had many opportunities to talk to Bud at the West Coast Jazz Weekends, and I was in the crowd that welcomed him on his memorable tour of South Africa in 1958. I think that Bud is somewhat surprised, and not a little chagrined that his loyal fans (and he has very many among the "older fogies" who go to these weekends), have doted on these older Pacific Jazz recordings to the extent that they have. While he has never voiced this to me, I think that he feels that these "west coast jazz" recordings prevented him from receiving the recognition in the jazz world outside of California that he so richly deserves. Tainted as he, and so many others like Shorty Rogers, Shelly Manne, and Jimmy Giuffre, were by the "West Coast" label, the jazz critics were often quite dismissive in the late 50s and 60s. For someone like myself with eclectic jazz tastes, but a very strong love of the "west coast" sound, it was often a pitched battle to convince hard-core fans of the "hard-bop" "East Coast" variety that musicians like Shank and Rogers were every bit as creative in their own way as Jackie McLean or Lee Morgan.

One of the great things about this board (which I have mentioned several times.. I am sorry to be so boring) is that I have become aware of how a younger generation has come to embrace all of this music with a much more open mind. God! I remember just 12 years ago on the old rec.music.bluenote list how I had to convince others that Giuffre had something to contribute. Now this same generation, and even younger, are clamoring to buy the Mosaic Giuffre box! In any case, Bud Shank continues to play great music, and he certainly is one of our important national jazz treasures. I just wish that he would not demean those wonderful recordings which were so much a part of the zeitgeist of the 1950s...

[TedR]

garth,

Your comment on how many of the "west coast" players were tainted reminds me of one of the discs from Shelly Manne & His Men At The Black Hawk where he introduces each member of his "west coast" band being from Boston, New York, and other east coast cities. An obvious slap at the critics who used labels to describe music.

[wesbed]

Tainted as he, and so many others like Shorty Rogers, Shelly Manne, and Jimmy Giuffre, were by the "West Coast" label, the jazz critics were often quite dismissive in the late 50s and 60s. For someone like myself with eclectic jazz tastes, but a very strong love of the "west coast" sound, it was often a pitched battle to convince hard-core fans of the "hard-bop" "East Coast" variety that musicians like Shank and Rogers were every bit as creative in their own way as Jackie McLean or Lee Morgan.

To me, there is a difference between the East Coast and the West Coast styles of jazz. However, both result in good jazz music. Some people laugh but there is also a difference, to me, between 'country' and 'western' music.

The East Coast sound causes me to think of the big city, usually New York. Jazz clubs that are packed and warm on the inside while the weather might be cold and bitter on the outside. Lots of hot playing makes up for the cold nastiness of the environment outside of the club.

The West Coast sound causes me to see visions of the Los Angeles / San Diego area of Southern California. I see the coastal bluffs, the ocean, and people on surfboards. I imagine jazz clubs that are warm on the inside to reflect the equally warm and relaxed feeling of the weather/environment on the outside. The West Coast music doesn't need to be as 'hot' as the East Coast music. I mean, why not just relax, have a drink, enjoy the warm music, warm weather, and the very nice climate? No worries.

Shank's music reflects all I envision of the Southern California culture of the 1950s/1960s. Sublime, exquisite, warm, bouncy, friendly, but still brilliant and intense. The Bud Shank Mosaic Complete box liner notes quote Shank as saying that he always preferred being where it was warm. I believe Mr. Shank has nothing to be less-than-proud of regarding the music he made for Pacific Jazz. This music warms me every time I listen to it.

I'm happy to read Late's post where points out why Shank was was 'good' on Pacific Jazz. Since discovering Shank, I've always enjoyed his 'old' style of playing.

The Shank/Cooper Select is yet another example of the nice sounds recorded by Pacific Jazz. To me, this music is warm, cozy, calming, precise, sublime, and quietly intense. It gives me visions of old-culture Southern California.

I'm even enjoying the relaxing #2 disk upon each additional listen.

Edited April 17, 2004 by wesbed

[DrJ]

NO NO NO NO NO! Methinks my comments have been used as a springboard to a discussion that I'd like to disengage them from, post haste!

Seriously, I'm actually more than a little distressed to see this whole discussion degenerate yet again into an East coast/West coast thing. That couldn't have been FARTHER from my intention with my comments. Perhaps when I said I felt some of his PJ stuff lacked fire, people thought I meant "fire" in the stereotypical "hot" sound of a group like the MOANIN' era Messengers. But that's not what I meant. Miles, to me, played with fire even when he was picking his way through a fragile ballad...so did Bill Evans on "Peace Piece." It's not about the surface, it's what radiates from the core.

Let me try briefly again:

I'm talking about Shank as an individual, not as a school, not as a pseudo-evangelical movement, not as a geographic region. I have largely never bought into the East/West thing - far too many exceptions and differences among individuals about what even constitutes an East vs West coast sound and style to make the whole debate more than vaguely amusing talk over cocktails for a few minutes. Beyond that, it's a nonsense.

So rather than trying to put him into some artificial category, I was talking about my personal impressions of Shank as an individual musician, and then simply tying them in with his own comments. But even if he felt the opposite of me - e.g. that his early playing was the stuff and he degenerated as he got older - well obviously I'd have to respect his opinion but would still personally much more value his later recordings.

But from my standpoint, all of this should have NOTHING to do with the perception of him being "too West coast," which some appear to automatically associate with "effete." I don't make that association myself, never have, and that was NOT my point.

There are many people who are just as ostensibly "mellow" sounding on the surface as PJ-era Shank, some also with styles that could be lumped in with the stereotyped "West coast" label, who I more thoroughly enjoy - such as Cooper, Jack Montrose, some others. All of these are people who to me seemed and, more importantly, SOUNDED far more comfortable in what they were doing - who seemed, well, more THEMSELVES - than Shank ever did in the 50's.

In the Shank of that era, I hear a vastly talented but ultimately disatisfied and inconsistent musician, and while I can't point to notes that "say" this as plain as English, it permeates much of what he played. Not that I don't listen to it - as I mentioned originally the Shank Mosaic has helped me pass many a minute or hour pleasantly and I view that time as well spent - but it's way down on the list in terms of music that I would consider truly timeless and essential.

Just so the point is clear!

Edited April 17, 2004 by DrJ

[Larry Kart]

Not to conflate two gifted individuals, but the late Bill Perkins' fascinating Cadence interview from a few years back has a great deal to say about the self-image of some West Coast or West Coast-based players of that era and how and why some of them (notably Shank and Perkins) more or less consciously decided to "toughen up" their music -- rhythmically, harmonically, timbrally, etc.

[Tony Pusey]

Late, !

[Late]

... from my standpoint, all of this should have NOTHING to do with the perception of him being "too West coast," which some appear to automatically associate with "effete." I don't make that association myself, never have, and that was NOT my point.

Hi Tony,

I think we're actually on the same page here, albeit with a slight inclination toward different periods of Shank's recording career. I certainly don't think jazz music recorded on the west coast of America in the 1950's should be associated with any notion of what is effete — but I actually think that Bud Shank himself does make this association. That was my point.

I simply prefer Shank's Pacific Jazz recordings — considering them more inventive and unique than his later and more recent recordings — and think it's somewhat of a shame that the artist himself thinks less of these earlier documents.

Shank's own disappointment — in hindsight — with playing so much flute in those days rings as something of a hollow argument to me. Sure, he wanted to play more alto — who can blame him? — but the flute playing, at that time, was largely responsible for providing what I would guess would be a much needed source of income. This is what I hoped my other point was — i.e. don't disparage the poor little pipe if you're leaning on it for dough!

Of course, all of us posting in this thread have an admiration for Shank. I simply find that the Mosaic box in particular carries some special gems (e.g. both surfing soundtracks and New Groove). I mean, listen to that lovely baritone playing on "The Awakening" (Disc V), and the — yes! — fire on the box's closing track, "Dance of the Sea Monsters" — Ornette Coleman and Don Cherry (two more transplanted "West Coast" musicians?) are not too far away.

[Late]

Also wanted to add, for those with any interest, that the DVD of Barefoot Adventure is well worth renting — if not for the fun of the vintage footage, then for the little extra snippets of music (*) that didn't make it into the Mosaic.

* These appear to not be actual "tunes," but short segments of either bass or drums together, bass alone, guitar with bass, occasionally Shank with the rhythm section, and, if memory serves, an uncredited trombone player — usually to color the drama of any short scene.

[Tony Pusey]

Dear Late, yes I think I agree with you, I happen to prefer Buds earlier stuff, Of course I like the later stuff I have heard- though I could have heard more!- but I find it slightly more generic, less of an individual voice than the Pacific Jazz days. One paradox for me is that I generally dislike jazz flute but i really like Buds playing, go figure. Since this thread started I have gone back and listened to both of the Mosaic sets and also portions of the Kenton presents and complete Nocturne box and I am glad I did! Just like a good Cabernet , and I too even like the Surf stuff...

[Late]

Hi Tony P.,

Just wanted to clarify that my address to "Tony" above was to our resident doctor here, Dr. J., also a Tony.

Yes, a fine cabernet ... I'm in agreement there.

[wesbed]

I'm playing the Shank/Cooper Select more and more. Upon my first couple of listens I thought the set seemed 'light.' The more I listen, the deeper the music becomes.

To be fair, the box is not full of lots of bombastic playing, although it does have it's moments (such as on the #1 CD, 'How Long Has This Been Going On').

But, overall, some very equisite and sublime playing by all involved. I'm drawn to this set of disks, again & again, for the classy playing and nice feel. Some tracks feature Shank and Cooper, both playing saxophones. Some tracks feature Shank on flute and Cooper on oboe. The flute and oboe tunes cause me to think of classical music gone the way of jazz. Not that these songs sound 'classical' in any way. However, these are instruments I'd normally associate with classical music. It's unique to hear these intruments played in a jazz format. I learned of Shank's jazz flute on the original Bud Shank Mosaic. However, Cooper makes the oboe swing in the same fashion as does Shank on the flute. The flute offsetting the oboe, and vice versa, makes for a great combination of sounds.

When I listen to the tunes in this Select, I'm continuously reminded of my own perceptions of what life was like, in Southern California, during the 1950s/1960s. I have a very friendly vision of nice weather, good drinks, nice folks, sandy beaches, fast cars, clear water, and swinging music. I realize my perception of a 'California Perfection' never existed in total. Nevertheless, I'm enjoying my personal vision of time-period California caused by the music in the Shank/Cooper Mosaic Select.

This music makes me want to hop in my car and make the 6-hour drive to San Diego. Then drive my car up the coast, toward Los Angeles, while listening to this music.

Edited April 20, 2004 by wesbed

[wesbed]

On session 'G,' the Blowin' Country session. The Mosaic booklet says Mutual Admiration Society, Blowin' Country, and Dinah feature both Bud Shank and Bob Cooper on tenor sax. Does anybody know which man plays first on each song?

[John Tapscott]

I listened to Dinah last night on the website (very nice, BTW). On that tune, it sounds to me that Cooper solos first.

[wesbed]

In anticipation of the arrival of my copy of the Kenton Presents Mosaic box and reading the Kenton Presents thread, I'm in sort of a West Coast jazz mood this evening.

I'm listening to the Shank/Cooper Mosaic Select as I type these words. When I first listened to the Shank/Cooper Select, my feeling about the music was that it was 'good' but also 'easy.' My feelings toward this collection of music grow more favorable with each listen.

One of the Mosaic catalogues discussed what great lengths Ron McMaster went to in his effort to bring this music back to life. To make the music listenable and available in the digital format.

Thanks to Mosaic (again) and Ron McMaster (again).

Edited July 2, 2004 by wesbed