romualdo Posted January 16 Report Posted January 16 (edited) I've just noticed that Afro (Norgran 1003 - later released in 56 as Manteca on Verve 8208) was also originally released as a 3EP (7")(EP N-2002-3) set. It appears to have an extra track titled "6/8" that looks like it's never been released anywhere else AFAIK - LP or CD. Some discographies list it as unreleased & other list it as part of the original LP. Anyone out there with a copy of the triple EP set? I'm surprised the Andorrans havn't added this track to one of their DG releases. https://www.discogs.com/release/12735433-Dizzy-Gillespie-And-His-Orchestra-Afro This EP does exist as it turns up on auction sites https://www.popsike.com/DIZZY-GILLESPIE-AFRO-1954-Norgran-3-EP-NM-Beauty-Norman-Granz-SUPERB/200761522515.html Edited January 16 by romualdo Quote
mikeweil Posted January 16 Report Posted January 16 I have a French 7 CD box set on United Archives that claims to be the "Complete Big Band Studio Sessions 1946-1960", lists the track "6/8" in the booklet and on the paper sleeve of the respective CD, but does not include it but has the suite as on the Norgran LP MG N-1003 (which I have a Verve LP replica CD from 2002). I smell a discographical messup here: The third part of the suite "Jungla" is in 6/8 time - maybe this part was re-recorded at the end of the session and given the track title "6/8" and a new master number but used replacing the original take of "Jungla". Musically, that part is pretty much identical to the parts titled "6/8" in both "Afro Cuban Jazz Suites" that Chico O'Farrill recorded for Verve in 1950 and 1952. Quote
Steve Gray Posted January 16 Report Posted January 16 Also the timing given for "6/8" (4:47) is very close to the timing of "Rumba-Finale", the third part of the suite. Sure looks as if you are right Quote
Teasing the Korean Posted January 16 Report Posted January 16 5 hours ago, mikeweil said: Musically, that part is pretty much identical to the parts titled "6/8" in both "Afro Cuban Jazz Suites" that Chico O'Farrill recorded for Verve in 1950 and 1952. My initial thought was that the Chico O'Farrill 6/8 was accidentally listed as the additional track. Quote
romualdo Posted January 16 Author Report Posted January 16 5 hours ago, Steve Gray said: Also the timing given for "6/8" (4:47) is very close to the timing of "Rumba-Finale", the third part of the suite. Sure looks as if you are right If that's the case then it's on the EP set twice https://www.discogs.com/release/12735433-Dizzy-Gillespie-And-His-Orchestra-Afro also, is it possible to get 12 minutes onto a single EP side? (Contraste/Jungla/Rhumba Finale) Quote
mikeweil Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said: My initial thought was that the Chico O'Farrill 6/8 was accidentally listed as the additional track. The two versions from the Afro Cuban Suites have different master numbers. A "Finale" is the last part, always - O'Farrill's other suites always have the 6/8 part somewhere in the middle. A corrected track list would be: Manteca Theme Contraste - Bolero-Son Jungla - 6/8 Rhumba - Finale As I said, the "6/8" may just have been misplaced in the layout. Quote
romualdo Posted January 17 Author Report Posted January 17 The original Afro-Cuban Suite released by Machito's Orchestra (Composed/conducted by Chico O'Farrill) was released on a Mercury 10" (505) & ran for approximately 17 mins (fits with the full track from the Charlie Parker Verve box set plus the reissue Verve LP I both have) Cancion, Mambo, 6/8, Jazz, Rhumba Abierta (Machito 10") =? Manteca Theme, Contraste, Jungla, Rhumba Finale (Gillespie's Afro) The Gillespie Afro version runs for a similar amount of time (just under 17 mins) - I presume 6/8 was part of this but not listed on the LP. I don't think 6/8 was extra material Quote
mikeweil Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 (edited) As I said, Jungla is a 6/8 part. My guess is the studio staff mesed up when naming a re-take. "Okay, let's do another take of the 6/8." Which is the part titled Jungla. The Verve discography is full of such items. Edited January 17 by mikeweil Quote
romualdo Posted January 18 Author Report Posted January 18 (edited) 10 hours ago, mikeweil said: As I said, Jungla is a 6/8 part. My guess is the studio staff mesed up when naming a re-take. "Okay, let's do another take of the 6/8." Which is the part titled Jungla. The Verve discography is full of such items. if that's the case (as I mentioned above) then there are two versions of 6/8(Jungla) on the EP - the total EP (6 sides) time is longer than the LP Edited January 18 by romualdo Quote
mikeweil Posted January 18 Report Posted January 18 I would certainly like to hear that! As soon as I have renewed my Frankfurt library card I will consult the Verve discography. Quote
Steve Gray Posted January 18 Report Posted January 18 On 1/16/2024 at 11:35 PM, romualdo said: If that's the case then it's on the EP set twice https://www.discogs.com/release/12735433-Dizzy-Gillespie-And-His-Orchestra-Afro also, is it possible to get 12 minutes onto a single EP side? (Contraste/Jungla/Rhumba Finale) If you look at the "other images" on that discogs link you will see that there is a shot of side 2 which does indeed include Contraste/Jungla/Rhumba Finale https://www.discogs.com/release/12735433-Dizzy-Gillespie-And-His-Orchestra-Afro/image/SW1hZ2U6MzY4ODg4MDc= It appears you can get 12 minutes on an EP. Surprises me. There are also shots of the liners which for me are illegible unfortunately Quote
romualdo Posted January 18 Author Report Posted January 18 Manteca : Dizzy Gillespie And His Orchestra : Dizzy Gillespie, Quincy Jones, Ernie Royal, Jimmy Nottingham (tp) Leon Comegys, J.J. Johnson, George Matthews (tb) Hilton Jefferson, George Dorsey (as) Hank Mobley, Lucky Thompson (ts) Danny Bank (bar) Wade Legge (p) (jazz parts), Ray Concepcion (p) (Afro parts), Lou Hackney, Bobby Rodriguez (b) Charlie Persip (d) Candido Camero, Mongo Santamaria (cga) Jose Mangual (bgo) Ubaldo Nieto (timb) Chico O'Farrill (arr) New York, May 24, 1954 1711-4 Manteca (theme)Verve MGV8208, VE2-2522, (Jap)POJJ-1517, Verve 314-521737-2 [CD] 1712-4 Contraste Verve MGV8208, VE2-2522, (Jap)POJJ-1517 1713-4 Jungle - - - 1714-4 Rhumba-finale - - - 1715-2 6/8 (*)Norgran MGN1003, Classics (F)1424 [CD] Note:All above titles also on Not Now Music (E)NOT2CD316 [CD] titled "Gettin' Dizzy"; a 2 CD set. All above titles also on Verve (Jap)POCJ-2772 [CD] titled "Manteca"; see June 3, 1954 for rest of CD. All above titles also on Norgran MGN1003, Verve MGV8191, 2610047, Verve 314-517052-2 [CD], Classics (F)1424 [CD]. Here's the listing from Lord (online) - 6/8 is listed as a separate take (probably sourced from the Verve Discography) but unfortunately Lord places this in the original Norgran LP 1003 (which is incorrect) & doesn't mention the 3EP set. Quote
Steve Gray Posted January 18 Report Posted January 18 Looking on streaming sites, it is claimed that 6/8 is on the 1953-1954 "Dizzy Gillespie in Chronology" CD. Manteca Theme / Contraste / Jungla / Rhumba-Finale / 6/8 (05-24-54) is shown as lasting 16:29 which implies 6/8 is not really there given the discogs timings. I can't listen to it to confirm Quote
romualdo Posted January 18 Author Report Posted January 18 10 hours ago, Steve Gray said: Looking on streaming sites, it is claimed that 6/8 is on the 1953-1954 "Dizzy Gillespie in Chronology" CD. Manteca Theme / Contraste / Jungla / Rhumba-Finale / 6/8 (05-24-54) is shown as lasting 16:29 which implies 6/8 is not really there given the discogs timings. I can't listen to it to confirm agreed - IIRC I saw the album listed on Spotify(with the 6/8 added) & the timings were similar to the original LP so I surmised the 6/8 was not actually present Quote
romualdo Posted January 24 Author Report Posted January 24 I suggested to Tom Lord to modify his entry for Afro Afro : Dizzy Gillespie And His Orchestra : Dizzy Gillespie, Quincy Jones, Ernie Royal, Jimmy Nottingham (tp) Leon Comegys, J.J. Johnson, George Matthews (tb) Hilton Jefferson, George Dorsey (as) Hank Mobley, Lucky Thompson (ts) Danny Bank (bar) Wade Legge (p) (jazz parts), Ray Concepcion (p) (Afro parts), Lou Hackney, Bobby Rodriguez (b) Charlie Persip (d) Candido Camero, Mongo Santamaria (cga) Jose Mangual (bgo) Ubaldo Nieto (timb) Chico O'Farrill (arr) New York, May 24, 1954 1711-4 Manteca (theme) Norgran MGN-1003, EPN-2002-3, Verve MGV6208, VE2-2522, (Jap)POJJ-1517, Verve 314-521737-2 [CD] 1712-4 Contraste Norgran MGN-1003, EPN-2002-3, Verve MGV6208, VE2-2522, (Jap)POJJ-1517 1713-4 Jungla [Jungle] [6/8] (*) Norgran MGN-1003, Verve MGV6208, VE2-2522, (Jap)POJJ-1517 1714-4 Rhumba-finale Norgran MGN-1003, EPN-2002-3, Verve MGV6208, VE2-2522, (Jap)POJJ-1517 1715-2 6/8 Norgran EPN-2003-3 Note: Norgran MGN-1003 titled "Afro". Norgran EPN-2002-3 titled "Afro"; a 3 x Vinyl, 7", 45 RPM, 3 EP set; see June 3, 1954 for rest of this set. (*) This title is in 6/8 time and is likely the initial take of "6/8" - Mx. 1715-2. Verve MGV-6208 = Verve MGV-8208 both titled "Manteca". Above titles from Norgran MGN-1003 also on Not Now Music (E)NOT2CD316 [CD] titled "Gettin' Dizzy"; a 2 CD set. Above titles from Norgran MGN-1003 also on Verve (Jap)POCJ-2772 [CD] titled "Manteca"; see June 3, 1954 for rest of CD. Above titles from Norgran MGN-1003 also on Verve MGV8191, 2610047, Verve 314-517052-2 [CD], Classics (F)1424 [CD]. Quote
mikeweil Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 9 hours ago, romualdo said: I suggested to Tom Lord to modify his entry for Afro Wise decision. The only way to confirm would be to get both issues, listen and compare. Quote
romualdo Posted January 24 Author Report Posted January 24 36 minutes ago, mikeweil said: Wise decision. The only way to confirm would be to get both issues, listen and compare. yes, I'm attempting to do that - just have to track down a copy or burn of the EP set - feelers are out at present Quote
mikeweil Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 9 hours ago, romualdo said: yes, I'm attempting to do that - just have to track down a copy or burn of the EP set - feelers are out at present I confirmed quite a few errors with that method during my research for the Cal Tjader Discography. Tracks that were attributed to the wrong sessions, mistitled, that were different takes on various issues. etc- Everything is possible, including takes listed somewhere that probably never existed. But Lord or whoever supports him with data, or the authors of label discographies, never can have listened to every existing issue, simply too much for a complete overview jazz discography. That is for the specialists. Basic rules are: 1. always consult a second independent source and 2. Listen to it yourself, whenever possible. E.G. I once got me a shellac record at an auction, had it transferred to digital, and in the studio during playback it turned out Tjader doesn't even play on it! Further investigation got me a tape from a fellow forum member that confirmed the 78 I had was a reissue of an earlier issue from a different session without Tjader. You never know until you listened yourself. Quote
miles65 Posted January 25 Report Posted January 25 I got out my copy of Verve 513 876-2 The Original Mambo Kings. Attached the track listing for The Manteca Suite. My Guess is that 6/8 is Rhumba Finale part 2. Running time 1:29. It sounds as an encore to me. We won't know for sure until a copy of the EP turns up. Quote
mikeweil Posted January 26 Report Posted January 26 The Rhumba Finale on the Issues I have all have these two parts, and none of them is in 6/8 time. Quote
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.