RIP Ozzy Osbourne.

[Holy Ghost]

13 minutes ago, sgcim said:

The next day I went to TSS and bought If's first album. They were even more obscure than Sabbath. Many years later (pre-internet ), I only met one other person who was an If fanatic. We were doing a week-long gig with Al Martino in Connecticut, and he was the bass player on the gig, and we drove up together. It turned out that he didn't even know of the existence of the first If album, so I invited him over my place, and sat there in shock, listening to their first album on Capitol.

 

This band, If?

Seems logical to me: Imagine a reunion tour, they can rename themselves "Then" and start a rock 'n' roll conditional! 😎

[felser]

If were a great group.  Not sure when I discovered them, but it was after they had disbanded.  

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Back in the 80's I used to occasionally listen to a Tommy Vance program on the BBC.  I forget what it was called but it was music "on the heavy side" as he would say.  In my view it was kind of lightweight musically but these bands often put on an impressive display of electric guitar virtuosity which could be enjoyable in and of itself, the tunes and lyrics largely simplistic and barely audible.  OK a lot of it was repetitive tricks and pentatonic cliches but it had a certain cocky majesty in its braggadoccio.  

I don't know if my tastes have changed over the last 40 years. I still find the occasional shredder exciting but when I went through several notable Black Sabbath tunes mentioned in the newspaper, and when I listened to the excerpts that Rick Beato played in the clip linked above, I was struck by how rudimentary, obvious, and unswinging it all is.  The combination of third-hand blues mixed with English music hall and camp satanism, hyper-masculinity blended vaguely with an ethos hinting at drag-queens - not that there is anything wrong with that - does little for me.  

[gvopedz]

Even the Alamo (San Antonio, Texas, USA) said goodbye.  I do not know if the weblink to the Alamo's instagram will work, so here is the statement from the instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DMa6Z8lpERQ/

We at the Alamo are saddened to hear of the passing of legendary musician Ozzy Osbourne. His relationship with the Alamo was marked initially by a deeply disrespectful incident in 1982. This act profoundly and rightfully upset many who hold this site sacred.

However, redemption and reconciliation eventually became part of his history as well. In 1992, Ozzy personally apologized to then-Mayor Nelson Wolff and expressed genuine remorse for his actions. Decades later, in 2015, he revisited the Alamo grounds to learn and appreciate the site's profound history, openly demonstrating humility and understanding.

At the Alamo, we honor history in all its complexities. Today, we acknowledge Ozzy Osbourne's journey from regret to reconciliation at the historic site, and we extend our condolences to his family, friends, and fans around the world. May he rest in peace.

[Holy Ghost]

On 7/25/2025 at 9:28 PM, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Back in the 80's I used to occasionally listen to a Tommy Vance program on the BBC.  I forget what it was called but it was music "on the heavy side" as he would say.  In my view it was kind of lightweight musically but these bands often put on an impressive display of electric guitar virtuosity which could be enjoyable in and of itself, the tunes and lyrics largely simplistic and barely audible.  OK a lot of it was repetitive tricks and pentatonic cliches but it had a certain cocky majesty in its braggadoccio.  

I don't know if my tastes have changed over the last 40 years. I still find the occasional shredder exciting but when I went through several notable Black Sabbath tunes mentioned in the newspaper, and when I listened to the excerpts that Rick Beato played in the clip linked above, I was struck by how rudimentary, obvious, and unswinging it all is.  The combination of third-hand blues mixed with English music hall and camp satanism, hyper-masculinity blended vaguely with an ethos hinting at drag-queens - not that there is anything wrong with that - does little for me.  

FWIW, Tony Iommi's got chops. He talks in an interview (can't remember where or when, 1990's maybe?) that he really liked Pacific Jazz Records and cites Jim Hall and Joe Pass as influences. Influenced by Bach as well. I'll just skip over the usual Beatles talk, Ozzy had made clear the Beatles changed everything talk. 😊

1 hour ago, gvopedz said:

Even the Alamo (San Antonio, Texas, USA) said goodbye.  I do not know if the weblink to the Alamo's instagram will work, so here is the statement from the instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DMa6Z8lpERQ/

We at the Alamo are saddened to hear of the passing of legendary musician Ozzy Osbourne. His relationship with the Alamo was marked initially by a deeply disrespectful incident in 1982. This act profoundly and rightfully upset many who hold this site sacred.

However, redemption and reconciliation eventually became part of his history as well. In 1992, Ozzy personally apologized to then-Mayor Nelson Wolff and expressed genuine remorse for his actions. Decades later, in 2015, he revisited the Alamo grounds to learn and appreciate the site's profound history, openly demonstrating humility and understanding.

At the Alamo, we honor history in all its complexities. Today, we acknowledge Ozzy Osbourne's journey from regret to reconciliation at the historic site, and we extend our condolences to his family, friends, and fans around the world. May he rest in peace.

Yeah, what he did there was totally disrespectful, and I think he was cited (not arrested) by the park police, but this was a period when Ozzy was totally blasted nearly every day and night (recall he snorted ants with Nikki Sixx, when on tour with Motley Crue, back in the mid-eighties).

[Holy Ghost]

1 hour ago, gvopedz said:

Even the Alamo (San Antonio, Texas, USA) said goodbye.  I do not know if the weblink to the Alamo's instagram will work, so here is the statement from the instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DMa6Z8lpERQ/

We at the Alamo are saddened to hear of the passing of legendary musician Ozzy Osbourne. His relationship with the Alamo was marked initially by a deeply disrespectful incident in 1982. This act profoundly and rightfully upset many who hold this site sacred.

However, redemption and reconciliation eventually became part of his history as well. In 1992, Ozzy personally apologized to then-Mayor Nelson Wolff and expressed genuine remorse for his actions. Decades later, in 2015, he revisited the Alamo grounds to learn and appreciate the site's profound history, openly demonstrating humility and understanding.

At the Alamo, we honor history in all its complexities. Today, we acknowledge Ozzy Osbourne's journey from regret to reconciliation at the historic site, and we extend our condolences to his family, friends, and fans around the world. May he rest in peace.

Side story relating to the Alamo, is when I went there with my ex-wife and kids back in the late 90's, my younger daughter dropped her doll in the mote at the Alamo (and those carp are huge!) needless, I risked losing my arm to get it. Back at the hotel, when we checked out, she leaves the same doll in the hotel room, that I  almost lost an arm over. So, we call the hotel and have it shipped back home, only for her to leave it at a restuarant back home. That doll has a story to tell!

Edited 12 hours ago by Holy Ghost

[Stompin at the Savoy]

1 hour ago, Holy Ghost said:

FWIW, Tony Iommi's got chops. He talks in an interview (can't remember where or when, 1990's maybe?) that he really liked Pacific Jazz Records and cites Jim Hall and Joe Pass as influences. Influenced by Bach as well. I'll just skip over the usual Beatles talk, Ozzy had made clear the Beatles changed everything talk. 😊

 

OK but when I listen to Black Sabbath I find nothing like Joe Pass or Jim Hall.  Iommi may claim them as influences but where's the influence?  Do you hear it?  Or failing that, name a cut where Iommi plays well, whatever style...  I'm willing to be convinced.

[Holy Ghost]

4 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

OK but when I listen to Black Sabbath I find nothing like Joe Pass or Jim Hall.  Iommi may claim them as influences but where's the influence?  Do you hear it?  Or failing that, name a cut where Iommi plays well, whatever style...  I'm willing to be convinced.

It's not overt, and clearly neither Joe Pass nor Jim Hall were metal heads, but if you listen to the instrumentals on the first three records, and Bill Ward is a terrific percussionist on these tracks, you hear hints; however, the interlude between Hole in the Sky and Symptom of the Universe tracks one and two on Sabotage is a terrific example:

 

 

[mjazzg]

Thank you for posting this, I haven't heard it in 45 years and I can hear why my teenage self loved it so much.

As to whether Iommi is a good guitarist, I think it's self-evident that he's a great heavy rock player, after all he's fundamental in creating the style, but if you don't like heavy rock guitar playing your never going to get it.

The instrumental interlude makes a convincing argument that he could indeed play well outside the genre.

That contrast from the interlude into the opening riff is pure musical theatre and genius.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

5 hours ago, Holy Ghost said:

It's not overt, and clearly neither Joe Pass nor Jim Hall were metal heads, but if you listen to the instrumentals on the first three records, and Bill Ward is a terrific percussionist on these tracks, you hear hints; however, the interlude between Hole in the Sky and Symptom of the Universe tracks one and two on Sabotage is a terrific example:

 

 

Well, I listened to the first and second tunes on there.  There was a little break in between with some acoustic guitar which sounded like a nylon string guitar or three.  Call me unimpressed!  If you think that is very good guitar playing I envy you  because there is so much good guitar playing out there which you can look forward to hearing.  The electric guitar sounds nice - authentically metal - but in my view is nothing much musically - simplistic pentatonic riffs and power chords. If this is the best you can come up with for Iommi's playing then I guess I need listen no further. The melody and singing on the first number are absolutely what I was talking about: throwaway repetitive melody and lyrics.

To each his own and if this does something for you, great!  Does very little for me.

[mjazzg]

Back in the mid to late 70s I thought Iommi was the guitarist for HM simply because he wasn't a shredder, he didn't relu on speed and endless arpeggios like some of the players who came in his wake. To me his playing is about presence, depth and heft but I'm no musician so can't give a technical analysis, just a listener and that does me just fine 

3 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Well, I listened to the first and second tunes on there.  There was a little break in between with some acoustic guitar which sounded like a nylon string guitar or three.  Call me unimpressed!  If you think that is very good guitar playing I envy you  because there is so much good guitar playing out there which you can look forward to hearing.  The electric guitar sounds nice - authentically metal - but in my view is nothing much musically - simplistic pentatonic riffs and power chords. If this is the best you can come up with for Iommi's playing then I guess I need listen no further. The melody and singing on the first number are absolutely what I was talking about: throwaway repetitive melody and lyrics.

To each his own and if this does something for you, great!  Does very little for me.

But repetition and simplicity aren't necessarily negative attributes. I suspect your conclusion is correct, this music is simply not to your taste, that's not a bad thing either.

But as this is a thread celebrating one of the universally accepted progenitors of the genre it's really not surprising it features lots of folk who hear otherwise.

Each to their own.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I suppose whatever music people were dancing to in high school burns a particularly deep impression in one's mind. But it is possible to overcome this sort of bias.  In my case the music that came out in high school was the Beatles, Stones, etc.  And I really liked all that very uncritically at the time but later on it occurred to me that quite a bit of what the Beatles put out, for example, was dreck.

Edited 1 hour ago by Stompin at the Savoy