First known use of "Downtown" when referring to the NYC avant scene of the late '70s-early '80s?

[AndreyHenkin]

Does anyone any idea when this was first used in print to describe that circle of players and small DIY venues? Now it is ubiquitous but some journalist must have used it first.

References to downtown jazz can be found in DownBeat as early as 1962 but that is strictly geographical discussing clubs rather than an aesthetic description.

[clifford_thornton]

This might be a question for Will Hermes...

https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374533540/lovegoestobuildingsonfire/

[T.D.]

Somewhat off-topic, but "Downtown music" is a thing in classical/"new" music as well.

Kyle Gann dates the scene (but not usage) to 1961 (Yoko Ono's loft 🙂), see https://www.kylegann.com/downtown.html

I'm going to look into when that usage first appeared in print.

Edited 15 hours ago by T.D.

[clifford_thornton]

yes, Robert Wilson was called "Downtown Bob" (because of another Robert Wilson living, you guessed it, uptown), but I do not know if the term "Downtown" was ascribed to his art/theater scene in the late '60s or if the term as an aesthetic qualifier emerged later. 

https://whitney.org/exhibitions/rituals-of-rented-island

[rostasi]

I think the transition from a geographical distinction to a "scene" one was really a slippery one that started with the writings of Tom Johnson in the Village Voice starting around 1977 where he'd differentiate by referring to groups of composers working downtown and then referencing The Kitchen or Artists Space. I think that it started to have a stylistic meaning around '80 or '81 - still by Johnson - just because the divisions were growing clearer and the term was already circulating in the informal speech of the time so it just naturally worked its way into reviews with the knowledge that VV readers would just know.

[clifford_thornton]

yeah, I was thinking the Voice, and Johnson would make sense.

[Rabshakeh]

Two things that interest me are (1) the way that the geographic descriptor means that people interpret the New York downtown scene of that period as being something different to the wider trends in improv that were also happening in London and Tokyo which went in the same direction, rather than as being part of a cohesive second wave of free improv (to use the term that I think Shoemaker uses in reference to e.g. Steve Beresford pissing off the oldies at Company week); and (2) the apparently complete dominance of Eugene Chadbourne in the early stages of the NY scene (I wasn’t there but he seems to have been everywhere).

Were Slug’s Saloon and Ornette Coleman’s loft Downtown? Perhaps the descriptor was used for them? My knowledge of where the line is drawn is hazy.

[T.D.]

6 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Two things that interest me are (1) the way that the geographic descriptor means that people interpret the New York downtown scene of that period as being something different to the wider trends in improv that were also happening in London and Tokyo which went in the same direction, rather than as being part of a cohesive second wave of free improv (to use the term that I think Shoemaker uses in reference to e.g. Steve Beresford pissing off the oldies at Company week); and (2) the apparently complete dominance of Eugene Chadbourne in the early stages of the NY scene (I wasn’t there but he seems to have been everywhere).

Were Slug’s Saloon and Ornette Coleman’s loft Downtown? Perhaps the descriptor was used for them? My knowledge of where the line is drawn is hazy.

Both were geographically downtown: Ornette's loft in Soho (Prince St.) and Slug's in the East Village ("Alphabet City"). 

Where the line is drawn is hazy. The Kyle Gann essay I linked to says "below 20th St.", but says that's arbitrary because The Kitchen is now on 19th.

I think the region might be expanded to Chelsea (which is itself vague, with northern boundary either 34th St. or "upper 20s"), because (for instance) the W. Eugene Smith loft was on 6th Ave. near 29th St. 

"Downtown" refers to downtown Manhattan, below 20th Street (I'll pick that as an arbitrary boundary since the Kitchen, an important Downtown performance space, is now on 19th Street).

Edited 4 hours ago by T.D.

[Rabshakeh]

31 minutes ago, T.D. said:

 The Kitchen is now on 19th.

treet).

The Uptown scene.

[rostasi]

The "scenes" in other big cities were secondary - as it would naturally be if you're reading a publication catering to New Yorkers. I remember from those days that if you read about music performances in another country, it was usually in relation to upcoming concerts coming to NY or something spectacularly unusual involving a group of artists and musicians sharing "avant-garde" ideas (Shiraz Arts Festival for example).

Again, by 1980, geo-location lines became pretty aribitrary because "Downtown" was now known as a style and you could be playing in a different city entirely and be referred to as a "Downtown" composer.

[Rabshakeh]

I get that. The Village Voice is going to focus on New York.

What I mean is that the music being played at the ICA in London in 1978 was basically the same thing, with the same squeaky toys and the same duck calls. It is an interesting quirk that we now regard the Downtown scene as its own sui generis thing and not part of a very similar trend emerging in the post punk era in cities that had substantial first generation free improv scenes. 

I assume that a lot of that is down to later developments and in particular the platform given to John Zorn by Elektra from the late 1980s onwardss. But then again at the time I was focused on learning to eat solids so my opinion is probably wrong.

Edited 1 hour ago by Rabshakeh