Songs that are dangerously similar...

[Hardbopjazz]

The melody for “Salt Peanuts” was taken (stolen) directly from a Louie Armstrong solo. Don’t remember the tune though. I don’t think Dizzy was stealing, but more of admiration for Armstrong.

[Jim R]

Rifftide (Coleman Hawkins)

Merry Lee (Howard McGhee)

Hackensack (Thelonious Monk)

Toll Bridge (Joe Gordon)

but not sure if the last is the same tune or another tune completely with the same title. I think the first three by the stated composers are the same tune and it has also been called by the last.

I don't have "Merry Lee" in my collection, but on the Blakey/Joe Gordon Verve Elite issue it's listed as "Rifftide/Toll Bridge", and credited to Hawkins. It was listed as "Toll Bridge" and credited to Gordon on Gordon's original Emarcy LP. The Verve liners state that it originally came from a 1944 Mary Lou Williams session (under the name of "Lady Be Good", which is the chordal model) and was recorded a year later (nearly a decade before Gordon's and Monk's recordings) by Hawkins. Monk recorded "Hackensack" in May and June of '54, and the Gordon LP was recorded in September of '54.

So, in this case (as with "Royal Roost" / "Tenor Madness") it seems that some people at least wait a few years before ripping somebody off! I wonder if Joe Gordon had heard "Hackensack" before he went in to record his album...

As I suggested above, it's one thing to copy something fairly simple ("My Sweet Lord", 'Impressions", etc etc), but a ripoff of a fairly distinctive line (like "Lisa" or "Rifftide")... that takes some balls, IMO.

[SGUD missile]

Also, the bridge of Impressions is from the Ravel 'Pavane pour un infante defunte', I think.

Ravels "Pavanne" is also lifted in toto ( almost ) to become the pop tune " The Lamp is Low "

[Jim R]

Ravels "Pavanne" is also lifted in toto ( almost ) to become the pop tune " The Lamp is Low "

Great example. There were a few years between those, eh?

What about "Stranger In Paradise"... that came from a classical piece, yes?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

As the writer of those Joe Gordon CD liner notes, it's my opinion that the musicians were not so concerned about the composers and probably weren't intentionally looking to mislead anyone - Rifftide had been out there as a commonly played line on Lady Be Good for a decade, whether as the melody or a shout chorus kind of thing. I could imagine the producer asking the musicians who wrote it and them responding, "I don't know" - at which point it suddenly became a new original composition called "Toll Bridge." Ditto for The Theme on the same record.

The Stan's Blues thing is quite tricky, actually - because some Getz issues have a tune listed as Stan's Blues that is NOT Eleanor (the 1964 Carnegie Hall w/Gilberto, for one). But yes, the commonly known Stan's Blues is Eleanor. Originally recorded by Getz as a shout chorus thing inside his performance of Jumpin' With Symphony Sid.

There are a number of other related things described in the Gryce book.

Mike

[Michael Fitzgerald]

There are a ton of classical themes, with added lyrics. Stranger in Paradise is Borodin from Prince Igor. I guess the idea was that the melody would be "great music" which would already be somewhat familiar to listeners, and it would be out of copyright, so the lyric writer could get all the royalties.

Mike

[SGUD missile]

Great example. There were a few years between those, eh?

What about "Stranger In Paradise"... that came from a classical piece, yes?

true :

Borodins "Prince Igor" ..the pollivitizian ( sp?) dances ..

also: "Full Moon and Empty Arms " ( Rachmaninoff )

[maren]

"My Sweet Lord" (you're cute, as usual, Mark ) was what, 3 notes?  And even that was contested in court.

But George Harrison lost, because the judge decided the resemblance between the "I really want to see you" part of 'My Sweet Lord' and the bridge of 'He's So Fine' was the clincher. Ruled that it "may not have been deliberate" but that they were "the same song." Harrison had to pay royalties. Then the Chiffons covered 'My Sweet Lord'! And then 25 years later Harrison bought the rights to 'He's So Fine'!

And, as he said all along: "I was inspired to write 'My Sweet Lord' by the Edwin Hawkins Singers' version of 'Oh Happy Day.' "

Don't think Edwin Hawkins sued the Chiffons, however!

Edited April 17, 2004 by maren

[maren]

In the pop realm, the chorus (bridge?) of Gordon Lightfoot's "If You Could Read My Mind" (1970), the part that goes:

"I never thought I could feel this way

And I've got to say that I just don't get it.

I don't know where we went wrong,

But the feeling's gone

And I just can't get it back."

always struck me as awfully similar to the part of George Benson's "Greatest Love" (1977) that goes:

"I decided long ago

Never to walk in anyone's shadow

If I fail, If I succeed

At least I live as I believe

No matter what they take from me

They can't take away my dignity."

Of course, it's not "very many notes" -- in terms of pitches -- but the rhythm, the sequence, the function as "bridge" are really close. But I guess it's almost a public-domain kind of thing -- this kind of folk-songy or chant trope is really deep -- reminds of what we were talking about the Nanner Nanner Boo Boo thread.

[tooter]

As the writer of those Joe Gordon CD liner notes, it's my opinion that the musicians were not so concerned about the composers and probably weren't intentionally looking to mislead anyone - Rifftide had been out there as a commonly played line on Lady Be Good for a decade, whether as the melody or a shout chorus kind of thing. I could imagine the producer asking the musicians who wrote it and them responding, "I don't know" - at which point it suddenly became a new original composition called "Toll Bridge." Ditto for The Theme on the same record.

The Stan's Blues thing is quite tricky, actually - because some Getz issues have a tune listed as Stan's Blues that is NOT Eleanor (the 1964 Carnegie Hall w/Gilberto, for one). But yes, the commonly known Stan's Blues is Eleanor. Originally recorded by Getz as a shout chorus thing inside his performance of Jumpin' With Symphony Sid.

There are a number of other related things described in the Gryce book.

Mike

I'm just catching up on this thread - a little late.

Very interesting to read your comments, Mike. I'm sure a lot of these apparent misdemeanours are simply caused by confusion or forgetfulness.

I came across a couple more duplicate tunes. "Bud's Blues" is called "Ronnie's Blues" on the Ronnie Scott album [When I Want Your Opinion I'll Give it to You]. And the tune called ""Curro's (or Currio's)" on [Out of this World by Pepper Adams and Donald Byrd is also known as "French Spice" on [Free Form] but this is just a renaming by the composer I suppose.

I must try to get the Gryce book - sounds interesting.

[l p]

'I want to talk about you' and 'Misty'. i think that Rahsaan Roland Kirk usually played a hybrid of the two, as on the official montreux '72 video.

[Jim R]

'I want to talk about you' and 'Misty'. i think that Rahsaan Roland Kirk usually played a hybrid of the two, as on the official montreux '72 video.

Yes, those two are similar, and can be substituted over the same changes, but they're still easily distinguishable melodies. I was really asking about tunes that are virtually identical.

[Brownian Motion]

You mean like "Sweet Georgia Brown" and "Bright Mississippi"?

And don't forget "Alabama Jubilee".

[Matthew]

The starting riff from Black Sabbath's After Forever, and the main riff for The Theme for Friends, the TV show. Someone owned a copy of Master of Reality at sometime.

[brownie]

Didn't realize until I played Daniel A.'s Blindfold Test 12 where there is a version of 'Poinciana' how closely related that tune is with 'Tangerine'.