Jim R Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 I'm starting this topic as a result of a discovery I just made while posting on the CANNONBALL ADDERLEY/QUINTET PLUS (AOTW) thread. In short, Victor Feldman's tune "Lisa" from that session reminded me strongly of another recording I had, but I couldn't place it. With help from board member Tooter, it occurred to me that it was reminding me of Sonny Clark's "Melody For C", from LEAPIN' AND LOPIN'. The A sections on these two songs sound almost identical to me- the melodies at least (the chordal understructure is different). Sonny Clark's recording followed the Adderley session by about 6 months, FWIW. I've gotta run right now, but I just wanted to get this topic started and see what people think (about this specific comparison, as well as other possible situations that have occurred in jazz over the years). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 There's that Hank Mobley tune "Chain Reaction" on SNF, which according to the liner notes is "extremely close to John Coltrane's 'Impressions' (which itself was taken from Morton Gould's 'Pavanne')." That's a double-take it seems. There's many more but I tend to forget (old age), good thing you started this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 My sweet lord, does this really happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 You mean like "Sweet Georgia Brown" and "Bright Mississippi"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 My sweet lord, does this really happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold_Z Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 (edited) My sweet lord, does this really happen? Literally the first example that came to mind when I saw the thread title. Edited April 15, 2004 by Harold_Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILLYQ Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 I immediately thought of George Harrison myself, and in my twisted brain I've conflated the tunes, so I sing, 'My sweet Lord, doodle-lang, doodle-lang...' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted April 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Lon, no, I'm not just talking about compositions based on the same changes. I'm talking about the use (theft?) of a specific melodic line (in this case, fairly intricate) and renaming it. "My Sweet Lord" (you're cute, as usual, Mark ) was what, 3 notes? And even that was contested in court. In this case I'm talking about a relatively complex/distinctive hard bop melodic line that seems to have been copped (at least in part, and I know the entire tunes are not thoroughly identical) and given a new name. I'd be curious to hear some reactions from people who own both recordings, and hear about other examples. As I said on the other thread, I know this isn't necessarily rare, but all cases are slightly different- not only in terms of the similarities of the tunes, but how far apart they were composed, how well the composers knew each other, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Cool, but about half the time that Monk performed SGB it became SGB to my ears with not much adulteration, which was sort of a joke I was thinking was funny at least to myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 The only one that seriously comes to mind is "Tenor Madness" which previously appeared at least in one place, on one of the Jazz Messengers at the Cafe Bohemia discs, if I remember right. I'm not sure. But yeah, it's pretty common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold_Z Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 I can't remember the title for sure, but it's a Coltrane blues head - I think MR PC - and the melodic line Trane plays is a lot like Sonny Rollins take on SHADRACK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted April 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Cool, but about half the time that Monk performed SGB it became SGB to my ears with not much adulteration Forgive me Lon, but I don't understand what you're saying. I think you meant to say "every time Monk performed Bright Mississippi, it became SGB to your ears"... but even stated that way, it doesn't make sense to me in this context. "Bright Mississippi" is a simplification of the melody of SGB... a "sketch" of the melody of SGB, no? Mark, thanks for mentioning "Tenor Madness". I can't recall which JM tune would correspond, but maybe I'll try to check that out. At any rate, I hope we might examine this a little more closely than just to say "it's common". I don't think it's necessarily "common" for a (relatively) intricate melody like "Lisa" to be given new life (six months after being released) under a different name. BTW, if I sound like I'm out to get Sonny Clark, that's not the point. I'm just intrigued with this, especially the way this recent discovery surprised me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted April 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 I can't remember the title for sure, but it's a Coltrane blues head - I think MR PC - and the melodic line Trane plays is a lot like Sonny Rollins take on SHADRACK. That's a good example, although the opening line on Shadrack is repeated, whereas on "Mr. PC", it changes in pitch when you go to the IV chord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted April 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 The only one that seriously comes to mind is "Tenor Madness" which previously appeared at least in one place, on one of the Jazz Messengers at the Cafe Bohemia discs, if I remember right. You remembered right. It's "Sportin' Crowd" (Hank Mobley). I've forgotten the history on that one, but those Cafe Bohemia recordings predated the Rollins studio date by about 6 months... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Yeah, but "Royal Roost" aka "Rue Chaptal" was recorded a decade earlier than either of those. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 I know it's not the same, but it often takes me a few bars to tell the difference between "My Old Flame" and "Don't Blame Me" if I'm not playing them and there's no lyrics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted April 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Yeah, but "Royal Roost" aka "Rue Chaptal" was recorded a decade earlier than either of those. Mike Mike, Do you mean that "royal roost/rue chaptal" are an older equivalent (yet another example that fits this topic) of tenor madness/sportin' crowd? At first I thought you meant "rr/rc" were the same melodic line as "tenor madness/sportin' crowd". Sorry, I'm confused. So... anybody else had a chance to A/B the Feldman and the Clark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Burke Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Supremes "You Can't Hurry Love" vs. Iggy Pop "Lust for Life". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Yes, "Royal Roost" or "Rue Chaptal" is the "Tenor Madness" melody, recorded by Kenny Clarke in 1946. Dorham is on the date. KD later recorded "Royal Roost" at the Bohemia in May 1956 too. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted April 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Thanks Mike. My confusion was caused by a failure to edit the track listings in my database after acquiring the newly programmed RVG version of the Dorham Cafe Bohemia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkertown Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Songs like that drive me CRAZY!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tooter Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 This has taken off and I'm only just catching up. I've got a whole list of them here, so here's the only one that's got four. Rifftide (Coleman Hawkins) Merry Lee (Howard McGhee) Hackensack (Thelonious Monk) Toll Bridge (Joe Gordon) but not sure if the last is the same tune or another tune completely with the same title. I think the first three by the stated composers are the same tune and it has also been called by the last. And how about Stan Blues? Eleanor, originally, by Gigi Gryce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGUD missile Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Everything must Change ...All in Love is Fair ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 Jim, Don't Blame Me/My Old Flame were the first to come to mind here as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted April 16, 2004 Report Share Posted April 16, 2004 There's that Hank Mobley tune "Chain Reaction" on SNF, which according to the liner notes is "extremely close to John Coltrane's 'Impressions' (which itself was taken from Morton Gould's 'Pavanne')." Also, the bridge of Impressions is from the Ravel 'Pavane pour un infante defunte', I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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