Some more vinyl questions!

[Dan Gould]

I've heard about the garage sale/estate sale route before but unfortunately there is no way I'd have the patience to find anything decent amidst the junk. I'm sure the rare find is extra nice, but my feeling is, I'd rather not waste my weekend listening time driving around, pawing through junk to come up empty too often.

[ajf67]

I'll second, or third, the good advice against buying sealed collectable LPs. I bought two sealed Johnny Cash Lps this weekend (cheap, so worth the risk) and one of them is noisy and warped. You just don't know where and how these things have been stored for the years they've existed, so "sealed" doesn't equate with "new." If it's a few bucks, fine, but nothing major.

[clandy44]

Ajf67-where is Orpheus? Don't know them, but know Joe's. Also try Second Story, where my son picked up a copy of Tristano's Crosscurrents for $1. I too have been burned by so-called sealed copies (some are original and some are recent seals) because they have been stored improperly and are now warped.

[Jazzmoose]

I've heard about the garage sale/estate sale route before but unfortunately there is no way I'd have the patience to find anything decent amidst the junk. I'm sure the rare find is extra nice, but my feeling is, I'd rather not waste my weekend listening time driving around, pawing through junk to come up empty too often.

Yeah, if you're at the point where it takes a rare find to get your wallet out, it can be much more time than it's worth, unless you're just the type that enjoys "digging for gold". On the other hand, if you're just starting out, it can be a great way to start.

[Jad]

I've heard about the garage sale/estate sale route before but unfortunately there is no way I'd have the patience to find anything decent amidst the junk.  I'm sure the rare find is extra nice, but my feeling is, I'd rather not waste my weekend listening time driving around, pawing through junk to come up empty too often.

Yeah, if you're at the point where it takes a rare find to get your wallet out, it can be much more time than it's worth, unless you're just the type that enjoys "digging for gold". On the other hand, if you're just starting out, it can be a great way to start. [/QUOT

What, you guys have lives or something?

Edited 16 Jul 2003 by Jad

[ajf67]

Hey Clandy,

Orpheus is in Clarendon, right near the metro stop on the blue line. Check it out, and tell Rick that Drew sent you. He'll probably laugh and ask if you like jazz... Here's the address:

3173 Wilson Blvd

Arlington, VA

703-294-6774

Orpheusrecords.com

I forgot to mention Second Story. I have only been to the one in Dupont Circle, where they don't have very many cds or lps, but the ones they do have they sell for pretty cheap. You really need to check the condition there though. I think they have another store in the suburbs sometwhere but I can't remember where.

[clandy44]

Ajf-Second Story has a warehouse on Parklawn in Rockville. Not alot of jazz, but there are bargains. I'll check out Orpheus...even if it means crossin' the Potomac.

[Matthew]

I was thinking about starting a new thread, but I'll try keeping this question here:

I see all the classical music lps going for cheap, so, what ones should I be looking at for as a start? What lp labels have a good rep as far as sound and quality? What are your classic music lp recommendations? I'm just dipping my toe in the waters since it is a cheap way to start listening to music I've never paid any attention to.

Edited 19 Jul 2003 by Matthew

[shrugs]

What labels do you see?

[Stefan Wood]

The audiophiles go for the RCA Victor Living Stereo "Shaded Dog' labels (late 50's - early 60's), Mercury Living Presence Stereo (same time frame), Westminster stereo "Blue back" (back of the jacket is in blue), British EMI's, and probably many others that I can't think of. Lyrita is a good example of a very fine sounding classical label that isn't as well known. But you can't go wrong with Deutche Grammophone, some Columbia Masterworks, and many others that are usually found in the dusty classical record bins.

Edited 19 Jul 2003 by Stefan Wood

[Matthew]

What labels do you see?

I see a lot of RCA "Living Stereo" Red label, EMI's, and Columbia Masterworks. The stuff you would see and a "big city" used record store.

[shrugs]

any Phillips red label form the Netherlands? These can very nice sounding and the pressings are quiet. And are often dirt cheap.

Columbia's can sound like crap and are often noisy.

Londons are the Blueback's not Westminster. Normally the Westminster Mono pressings are the most sought after, not the stereo. As far as the London label goes, look for the STS Treasury Series. The record label will be Orange. Lot's of killer deals and the sound is great. And always look for the original Decca pressings that will have a SXL prefix in the numbering system.

[ajf67]

I can vouch for the Philips red labels from the Netherlands. Those sound great to my ears. I think the most I paid was $4 apiece too.

[shrugs]

Most I paid was $20 for the 3 lp set of De Leeuw playing the piano music of Erik Satie. I had bever seen it on lp and have never seen it since buying it.

I have seen some sealed Phillips Netherlands go for over $10 on e-bay.

[Dmitry]

eBay vinyl buying lesson No.1 = This is NOT a VG+ record [even though the seller swears it is]

[sidewinder]

eBay vinyl buying lesson No.1 = This is NOT a VG+ record [even though the seller swears it is]

I can only assume that the definition of 'VG' in this seller's book is 'veritable garbage' ....

[Guest mary mcgoon]

I can only assume that the definition of 'VG' in this seller's book is 'veritable garbage' ....

The thing is, if you read the Goldmine grading standards, VG is not all that hot- maybe not as bad as that record in the picture, but usually not something that's going to give you a delicious listening experience.

[ajf67]

I actually think the Goldmine standards could use an update. There is room for a grade called "Excellent" that comes between VG+ and NM, because it seems to me that there is a large enough gap between NM and VG for two condition grades. This would help address the issue of the grades of NM- and VG++. Under a strict reading of the current condition standards, a record listed as NM- or VG++ should probably be VG+, but the grader wants to separate it from other VG+ records that are closer to plain old VG. Personally, when I see VG+, I think "Well, if it's REALLY VG+ that's fine, but if it's earning that grade because it's just a shade above VG then that's not what I'm after. "

I suppose this could also be solved by people accurately using the "Good" rating level (which when I see I think "Poor"), but in my experience there has been "Grade Creep" upward.

[Dan Gould]

You know, so long as there are no actual skips or scratches that don't play through, most of these VG or VG+ albums can make for *awesome* listening experiences if you have the patience and set-up to throw it into your PC and manually remove the pops and clicks.

[Dan Gould]

In fact, even on albums with skips, you can minimize the jarring-ness of the skip by normalizing downward the sound of the needle skipping forward. It doesn't save the missing music but it does make for a less disturbing listen.

So all of this is to say that one can lower the acceptable condition standards and still get nice sounding results.

[Dmitry]

I don't buy VG LPs SIGHT UNSEEN[photos mean nothing].

Usually eBay VG grading means that the cat was using the record as a toilet.

If the seller grades it as a VG+, it means the cat was using it as a toilet just for a couple of days.

There are exceptions.

Dan, for me one of the reasons to listen to vinyl is not to use any kind of digital gadgetry. Sound processors, de-clickers, etc. If a record needs all that, it's useless for me.

What's the point in taking your records through a digital laundry, when you can just buy a CD?!

[Dan Gould]

Dmitry, I'm not talking about a digital laundry. I'm talking about recording the vinyl sides as a wav file and manually removing the pops. There's no digital hocus pocus or filters or processors to distort, just the manual removal of extraneous noise, and only extraneous noise.

Now, if its the vinyl sound qualities you want, then you are losing that because the end result is a burned CD. But I am not a snob who's got to hear vinyl, I want to hear music.

The answer to your question is, because the vinyl has never been issued on CD or is unlikely to ever be issued. If I have a choice of a well-used original vinyl or a professionally remastered CD reissue, I'm going with the CD, always. But when it comes to rare vinyl, this "digital gadgetry" (which is not a fair description because again, I am talking about manual selection and deletion of individual pops) can make a world of difference.

Just ask Lon, who I cleaned up two of his Argo Ahmad Jamal LPs, leaving no alteration in sound except for the removal of 90% of the pops/clicks.

Of course, it all depends on your willingness to invest the time, and sometimes all the time in the world won't make a bit of a difference, if the background noise is really bad anyway.

[Dmitry]

But I am not a snob who's got to hear vinyl, I want to hear music.

I'm a snob?

Well, yeah. But how d'you know that?

How exactly do you manually de-click the LPs?

[Dan Gould]

In the program I use, goldwave, listen to the recording and hit "pause" when you hear a click (or simply look at the wav form, its generally easy to spot a click, at least when its in a quieter passage).

Telescope down into the hundreths of a second.

Isolate the pop-generally it will be about 1/100th to 5/100ths of a second long.

Choose "silence".

Listen to the clip again to make sure you didn't take anything other than the pop away.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

As I said, it can take some time, but its like ending up with an almost perfect album (sometimes it gets extremely difficult to isolate a pop so sometimes I leave a small handful intact-that's why its important to listen a second time to make sure you got what you wanted to get!)

[Dan Gould]

I would add to John's comments that when you truly isolate the pop, you lose nothing from the music and gain a great deal of enjoyment.