WE INSIST! - FREEDOM NOW SUITE Inquiry

[JSngry]

I'll admit upfront that my chronology in this matter is not what it should be, but it seems like Max followed producer Bob Shad to Time from Emarcy (just as he followed Bruce Lundvall from Columbia to Elektra to Blue Note), and that the string of Max-related albums on Time were all from the turn of the decade, 1959-1960. WE INSIST! was recorded in 1960, right?

So why did FNS end up on Candid? Did Shad nix the project for fear of controversy or, perhaps. a lack of interest in its themes? Or was the Shad/Roach relationship already over due to other, non-related factors?

Roach seems to like working with certain producers, no? His involvement w/Hentoff might have been a long and productive one if Candid hadn't folded so quickly. From Candid, he went to Bob Theile and Impulse!, a label that would seem perfect for his work of the era, but that didn't last too long. I wonder why?

Then there's the Mingus factor. The former partners in Debut sometimes crossed paths labelwise, including, especially, the Candid days & the subsequent Impulse! ones. Did Mingus have any sway with Roach about bringing FNS to Debut [edit: I of course mean Candid here] (or Roach w/bringing Mingus to Candid)?

Any info in this matter would be greatly appreciated. As always, thanks in advance,

Edited July 26, 2003 by JSngry

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Time was out of the picture for Roach by then. Beginning with the Newport Rebel Festival (organized by Mingus) in July 1960, Candid was the place to be and Roach didn't do just Freedom Now (late August/early September), there was Abbey Lincoln: Straight Ahead (Feb. 1961), and also Booker Little: Out Front (Mar.-Apr. 1961) - he was closely linked with both leaders (one more than the other).

Debut doesn't come into the picture, since the last session for that label was around October 1957.

As for the why - I couldn't begin to say. Max was very erratic personally at this time in his career. Remember, this is the guy who had to be removed by security at the Miles Davis Carnegie Hall concert in 1961.

Mike

[Late]

Remember, this is the guy who had to be removed by security at the Miles Davis Carnegie Hall concert in 1961.

Why? Don't know this story, but would like to hear it!

As for We Insist!, I've always thought that the choice of Coleman Hawkins was, if somewhat unlikely, enlightened and damn-near perfect.

[JSngry]

Ok, Time was out of the picture by July 1960, but Max had recorded for them as a leader as late as November of 1959, right?

Obviously, a project like WE INSIST! doesn't get thrown together in the studio like a blowing session, so here's what I'm wondering - did Max maybe pitch the project to Shad in late '59 or early '60, and Shad says no way, are you crazy?, something like that. Max, who by some accounts had been a little wobbly on-and-off ever since Clifford's death, takes that as the final straw and goes all the way into activist mode, with the Newport Rebel Festival being a warning shot in the summer for the upcoming WE INSIST! recording in the fall, Hentoff and Candid being in the right hands in the right place at the right time to document all this. When Candid closes up, both Mingus & Roach go to Impulse!, Max pretty much taking up where he left off, and Mingus going into something else, at least on record.

The break with Shad and Time seems too close to the Newport Rebel/We Insist/Candid series of events to have been entirely coincidental, or so it seems to me. Maybe it was though. Either way, I'm wondering if there's any documentation one way or the other, as it seems that if indeed Shad had rebuffed the idea of WE INSIST, either politely or otherwise, that might have indeed served as one factor that turned Max into a MUSICAL activist as opposed to the type who kept their politics out of their music, at least overtly. Or maybe Max had just and enough of "business as usual" and broke away from Shad just because. It seems like a matter for potential further investigation. Shad died in 1985, right? How is Max's memory these days? Have we waited too late?

Another question - did Time slide into Mainstream "seamlessly", or was there a break in the action?

And as far as Debut, I know the label ceased being a real label in '57 or so, but Fantasy kept the imprint active for the occasional later release by Mingus and Roach. Didn't SPEAK BROTHER, SPEAK come out as on Debut, or Fantasy Debut Series, or something like that?

[JSngry]

Remember, this is the guy who had to be removed by security at the Miles Davis Carnegie Hall concert in 1961.

Why? Don't know this story, but would like to hear it!

As I understand it, Max kept interrupting the proceedings by walking onto the stage carrying placards with various political/civil rights slogans. According to Joe Goldberg's Jazz Masters of the 50's, Charles Mingus's response to this was, "I told Max that if he wanted to become famous, he'd have to do something crazy." Make of THAT what you will!

[Michael Fitzgerald]

No - the Max Roach album for Time was done in January 1959, according to the best research right now (in the Mosaic set notes).

No way was the band with Booker, Coleman, Art Davis, Draper playing in November 1959. That band was done in the end of February 1959. Roach did play as a sideman on albums done for the Time label into 1960, as we mentioned in the Tommy Turrentine thread. At this point, I don't have any evidence to support the idea that Freedom Now had been suggested at an earlier point. Nat Hentoff might be someone to ask, but he's very busy making the world safe for democracy.

The first new recordings for Mainstream seem to be 1964. The last for Time seem to be September or later in 1963, so the change does seem to be pretty smooth.

Bob Shad's daughter contacted me a while back, haven't heard anything lately.

After about 5 years of inactivity, Debut was purchased by Fantasy in the early 1960s - but I think it is a fallacy to consider that in any way a real continuation of the Mingus-owned Debut. Celia Mingus moved to San Francisco around 1958 and then married Saul Zaentz, owner of Fantasy.

Mike

[JSngry]

Thanks for the chronological clear-up about Max's leader date for Time, Mike. Like I said, that was an area of "cloudiness" for me. The rest was just speculation on my part, wondering about the genesis of WE INSIST. Any documentation as to when (or even where) the idea was first floated and how long from conception to execution?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I thought, well, it's too bad the original Verve plan for the Max Roach boxed set didn't get implemented, because it would have included all the Mercury stuff (including the Boston Percussion Ensemble record), all the Impulse stuff, *and* the Freedom Now Suite - including alternative takes which have never been issued ever, before or since. It would also have had comprehensive new liner notes on all the sessions and we would have reflections by all the participants. But, that concept got pared down and pared down and we now have the Mercury Max Roach +4 sessions box on Mosaic. Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

Then I thought - but the Freedom Now Suite *was* reissued at one point - on Columbia LP in 1980. Luckily, I still have my copy and just as I had hoped, Nat Hentoff wrote NEW notes to accompany his original Candid LP notes. Quite a bit is paraphrase from the earlier essay, but there is some new information too, that is not in the Candid CD issue notes (strictly the 1960 originals). Anyway, I typed it up and here it is:

http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Essays/fns.htm

Mike

Edited July 26, 2003 by Michael Fitzgerald

[Guest ariceffron]

Did that Max incident at Carnegie Hall happen at intermission or before the show, beacuse i believe there is no evidence of it on the cds.

[JSngry]

Thanks, Mike! Gotta love this Internet thing, eh?

OK, this from Hentoff:

As for the immediate stimulus for the Freedom Now Suite, in 1959 Max Roach had begun collaborating with Chicago writer-singer Oscar Brown, Jr. on a long work to be performed in 1963 on the centennial of the Emancipation Proclamation. The vivid elements of 1960 affected the content and direction of the work, which was first performed for NAACP youth assemblies in Washington and Philadelphia, and then at New York's Village Gate. It was at the Gate that I first heard the Suite and asked Max if he would record it for Candid.

So - Max was already without a label when the Suite came to fruition. But was he label-less in '59 when he began collaborating w/Brown? If he recorded his Time album in January of '59 (while still under contract to Mercury, right?), and began doing sideman dates for Time in '59 into '60, then is there a plausable circumstantial case to be made that he intended to sign with Time when his Mercury contract expired?

If the answer here is "no way", then case closed. Maybe Max had already decided to be a free agent and just did those dates for some bucks and/or as a favor to all concerned. Seems plausible to me.

But what if he HAD intended to sign w/Shad & Time when his Mercury contract formally expired, but sometime in the course of events he floated the idea of WE INSIST! to Shad and realized that it wasn't going to fly on Time? Max had alread begun self-producing his albums at Mercury, so he might have by then come to see labels more as means of distribution than essential means of production, and if/when/if Shad nixed the idea, Max just moved on. Equally plausible, no? Then along comes Hentoff & Candid, and the rest is history. If it can be broadly said that "The Sixties" didn't really begin in America as a whole until the JFK assassination, then it can also be broadly said that in jazz, they began with WE INSIST! As usual, jazz was ahead of the rest of the country.

Certainly this matter is not a question of cosmic importance, but it is the kind of historical minutae that fascinates me (for better or worse). I hope that all this isn't too far-fetched in the face of some basic facts that I don't yet know. It's just something I've wondered about for some time.

Mike (or anybody else who has factual and/or anecdotal data at their disposal), any thoughts one way or the other (including "Let it GO man, nobody GIVES a flyin' phuck! )?

Edited July 26, 2003 by JSngry

[dave9199]

I just order Freedom Now from Candid in England a few weeks ago. $17.99 shipping included. Also ordered Mingus: Reincarnation Of A Lovebird & Mysterious Blues for $13.99 each.

[mikeweil]

If the Candid LP was to be included in the originally planned Max Roach Verve box set, did they have to license it or does Verve or whoever owns it right now have the rights to the Candid label? Or who DOES own Candid right now?

[Chuck Nessa]

Alan Bates owns it as far as I know.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

It would have been licensed, I assume. Also, as I understand it, the alternative takes from that album are in the possession of someone else - not the label. This is why we haven't seen them before. Those would have been licensed too.

My most recent Candid CD is Booker Little: Out Front, which says "Licensed in the USA and Canada to Artists Only! Records" www.artistsonly.com - there is a 1989 date for Candid Productions, Ltd. and website URL - www.candidrecords.com but the remastering date is April 10, 2000.

Mike

[Bright Moments]

does anyone know where i can order We Insist! online from a U.S. seller ?

[Brad]

does anyone know where i can order We Insist! online from a U.S. seller ?

Amazon says they have We Insist as an import.

Amazon France (US subsidiary) also has it.

Edited August 26, 2003 by Brad

[Bright Moments]

thanks!