Political forums on the Organissimo board

[Simon Weil]

As a general thing, there is a set of people who don't like losing but aren't terribly good at arguing either. So what they do is drag the discussion into abuse. That way they can bat away at the posters who post content-rich stuff until they knock them out of the way. Thus they "win". I've seen that happen, unendingly, on rec.music.bluenote, which is now merely a shell of what it was.

Like I implied previously, the sort of posters you get here are going to do their abuse in such a way that no particularly unpleasant example will appear. They aren't going to take the chance on having their "fun" curtailed by getting themselves ejected. What they will rather do is raise the temperature gradually and continually. You still get dragged into abuse, just more slowly and insidiously.

The whole idea of asking these people to be civil is a no-no. They just take it as an opportunity to be more devious and underhand.

Call me cynical.

Simon Weil

[Jim Dye]

Fact is, I was blissfully unaware of this board until I was linked here. I did not know about this board, had never visited this board, did not lurk on this board and was linked to this board via a polarity thread when it became clear folks here were still carrying grudges.

Well, I'll have to take your word on that one. I remember you making a promise to Dan Gould that you would not come here. Maybe I have it wrong, but that's how I remember it.

I was the one who started that polarity thread over at Hoffman, so you can blame me for ending your bliss.

Frenzy? I posted one small pic, in which no blood was shown--just three orthodox Jews trying to resuscitate a 4-month old. The picture was related to the thread. How this "hurt my argument" is a figment of your imagaination, which is quite active judging by your description of my posting a single small picture a "frenzy".

Now it's just a "Single Small Picture" eh? Seems like you gave it much more importance than that in the other thread. Especially since you boldly stated that "THE PICTURE STAYS". You can't have it both ways. If it is just a small picture, then why post it in the first place?

Plus, I wasn't just talking about you, although you started it.

Hey, If you don't like my use of the term "frenzy", maybe you'll like this one. I sure do.

Edited August 21, 2003 by Jim Dye

[Peter Johnson]

Next, all this talk about not censoring the board is fine and dandy.

However,

i'll bet anyone here that if there was an abortion thread and someone started posting graphic pictures of bloody fetuses, that you'd all be losing your fucking minds.

Jim--I want to respond to your comment because I'm firmly in the "no censorship" camp. And with all due respect, in response to your comment, that even goes for "graphic pictures of bloody fetuses." I wouldn't like it, and probably wouldn't comment on it; but speaking for myself, when I say I'm firmly anti-censorship, I mean I'm anti-censorship regardless of the topic.

This is not a snippy response to bait someone into testing my personal wish that the board remain censorship free (I mean, I also abide by the "just don't go there" policy more often than not when it comes to controversial threads/topics); and I believe the judicially-administered fist of doom serves a purpose; just wanted to give you my point of view and back up my previous call for keeping the board as is.

Peter

[Guest GregM]

Jim, what prompted me to post the pic was when Chris said "can we cut the hysteria a bit?". The man has absolutely no concept of what is going on over there. So I gave him a visual aid. Yes, a SINGLE, SMALL PICTURE. Do you have a problem acknowledging it as such? How do you think it was unwarranted? It wasn't out of context, off-topic or overly graphic or gory. What came next from Johnny and Chris is exactly the type of over the top knee-jerking they provide on a variety of subjects--but especially against Israel. If THEIR posts were what bothered you, say that. If mine bothered you, I still don't see why because you haven't explained why.

Regarding my promise to Dan, I was arguing with Dan in every other thread on a variety of topics. I remember folks were saying they'd go to other websites. At the time I really didn't think the BNBB would be closing down, and had no interest in going to other websites. Had you not started that polarity thread, I wouldn't have found out about organissimo and wouldn't be posting this right now, nor anything else here for that matter.

Edited August 21, 2003 by GregM

[Jim Dye]

That's cool, Peter. I can respect your commitment to anti-censorship. Actually, the more I consider it, the more I tend to agree with that position. It's hard to know where to draw the lines. I guess the best way is to let everyone draw the lines for themselves.

Edited August 21, 2003 by Jim Dye

[Peter Johnson]

I guess the best way is to let everyone draw the lines for themselves.

And that, in a nutshall and my (not so?) humble opinion, is exactly what's made this place so fuckin' cool.

I'll drink to that, Jim!

[Christiern]

Jim, what prompted me to post the pic was when Chris said "can we cut the hysteria a bit?". The man has absolutely no concept of what is going on over there. So I gave him a visual aid.

What a cop-out. The hysteria I suggested cutting somewhat was that exhibited by Rooster Ties, who went off in a most hysterical fashion. It had nothing to do with the situation in Israel, so either Greg is being disingenuous again, or we are seeing yet another instance of his mis-reading a post.

Bear in mind that Greg is a fanatic when it comes to the Middle-East situation. He sees only one side, and his view of that is woefully skewed. Some of you may recall his arguments with Barak Weiss, who was a member of the IDF and an eyewitness to what was happening over there. Greg, posting from California, and with, at best, second-hand knowledge of the situation, argued with Barak--it was totally ludicrous, of course. The man has it in his head that he knows more than anybody about this (and other matters), so anyone who disagrees with that is immediately labeled an idiot, jerk, or whatever derogatory tag Greg can come up with. Barak (who, BTW, is having a great time in Alaska atthe moment) was, of course, a "self-hater." Greg is the opposite, and therein may lie one of his many problems. Frankly, I think he is rather transparent, and I find it impossible to take anything he says seriously.

I know he will want the last word--well, he's welcome to it. Y'all don't need me to tell you where this one is coming from.

[Jim Dye]

If THEIR posts were what bothered you, say that. If mine bothered you, I still don't see why because you haven't explained why.

I think that posting graphic images of injured children and or adults is in poor taste. It shows no respect for the victims. It's bad enough that they had to endure the horror of the bombing, is it really right to broadcast pictures of them bleeding and dying all over the globe? Sure, it gets the point across, and maybe that's what it takes to get the message through our thick jaded skulls. The bombing was a horrible horrible, outrageous act. The picture you posted and the footage I saw on television really saddened me. At the same time, we have become so accustomed to violence today, that nothing is going to shock us, even though it should.

I don't know, Greg. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I just don't think that it's right.

Edited August 21, 2003 by Jim Dye

[Guest GregM]

Jim, we'll just have to agree to disagree. It is much more disrespectful to the victims to ignore that picture than to post it.

Edited August 21, 2003 by GregM

[catesta]

People are just themselves. Greg is Greg; Johnny is Johnny, Chris is Chris, Mark is a Moose, and Catesta is gay! No just kidding. BTW, Jacknife is a HUGE Dodo Greene fan.

Why do I have to be the gay one?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[catesta]

Weren't you the one who suggested to me to put Johnny E. Bush in the cement boots and give Greg electro-shock therapy?

Or was it vice versa?

Anyway, I agree.

D, It was cement Birkenstock's.

[Jazzmoose]

People are just themselves.  Greg is Greg; Johnny is Johnny, Chris is Chris, Mark is a Moose, and Catesta is gay!    No just kidding.  BTW, Jacknife is a HUGE Dodo Greene fan. 

Why do I have to be the gay one?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Whew! I grabbed the antlers just in time!

[connoisseur series500]

Why do I have to be the gay one?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Irony, my friend, irony.

[Rooster_Ties]

This is a little out of context (here's the thread where it came from originally: Conservative Cowards), but I think this post needs to be seen by some more eyeballs.

Here's the deal:

When the BNBB kicked you all out, I opened up my house and invited everyone in.  I said, "Make yourself at home!" and everyone has and it's been going great.  I've kicked you out of some rooms here and there, broke up some fights, I've turned the other cheek when you break something, etc. 

But remember folks, this is still MY house. I pay the web server fees every month.  I do all the maintenance.  I upgrade, solve the problems, design the graphics, do the skins (only one right now I know, I'm working on that), plus manage the rest of the site deaaling with my trio (this is, afterall, a site for my band, Organissimo.) 

Posting here is a privilege, not a right.  I enjoy having everyone here and for the most part the community is thriving and is great.  But, I'm getting mighty sick of this bickering and name-calling. 

I don't feel like I should have to explain myself when I close a thread.  I appreciate when someone thinks I'm going overboard and says so, like Big Wheel.  He made some great arguments, I agreed with him, I re-opened the thread because I was wrong.

But this forum is not a democracy.  Yes, I take everyone's opinion into account as much as I can (which is why I have not messed with the Politics Forum... the majority didn't want me to) but it is ultimately I, and in moderation cases, Use3D that make the decisions.  If you don't like that, leave.

I think we've been reasonable in the past.  I'm sure there have been fuck-ups here and there but I'd like to think that we're rational and will gladly review a counter-argument for any closed thread or any other decision.

Is this a power trip?  Damn right.  It's my website.

Jim. Let me, for one, say how much I appreciate your hard work with this board. I, and many, many others really appreciate having this forum for all our discussions. You da man!!!

Edited August 22, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[ajf67]

I've been reading this thread and the other one in the Politics forum that lead to it, and I just wanted to share a few thoughts for whatever they are worth.

First, I want to add my thanks to b3-er for hosting such a great site. I came late to the BNBB and was saddened when it closed down because it was such a fine spot with a lot of experts. The rise of your forum here has filled a void, and it's wonderful to have a place like this to constantly learn more about music from folks who know a lot about it.

Second, I would vote that the political forum should stay and that it be uncensored in any way. I rarely go to those forums, and to my knwledge I don't think I have ever posted there (After only a few visits it seemed clear that the discussions became dominated by a few who held very strong beliefs on each given subject. Then, as political discussions/debates almost always do, they developed into parsing each other's comments and replying, often in increasingly heated rhetoric). But, for those who want to go to them, they will only work if they are free outlets. That will mean emotional outbursts are included, and that there will be comments made and photos posted that some find offensive -- but that's what political debate is all about. To use a specific example, I personally didn't find the picture of the injured child to be out-of-bounds in and of itself. I thought it was just the kind of thing that could be helpful to good political discussion. However, I do think that all involved in that particular discussion were focused less on the "understanding and being understood" elements of debate and more on "the other guy's a (jerk) and I'm going to prove it" version of debate. And unfortunately I think that picture was diplayed at least partially with that in mind.

It isn't the end of the world if someone disagrees with you or is rude to you on a website. Maybe certain folks should practice a new mantra of "don't take the bait" before entering these rooms. Then maybe they can rise above it and hold back from replying to a hateful response someone has posted, or at least reply in a way that sheds some light on the topic at hand and keeps things from spinning out of control. I'm sure most people reading these posts reach similar conclusions on their own as to who is being a jerk in a given situation and who isn't. So pointing out that a particular person is being rude/wrong/silly/dumb/etc isn't really necessary in the first place. Plus, maybe if enough of us join in the discussions and behave maybe we can re-create the culture of the political forum by our own examples so that bad behavior is increasingly obvious and becomes less tolerated. Emotion and strong feeling about the topics at hand isn't bad, but emotion and stong feeling directed again and again at and between the same old people is pretty boring and completely unenlightening.

[Jazzmoose]

ajf67, those of us who do post on the political threads should probably print out a copy of your last paragraph and tape it up over our monitors...

[Brad]

I've said this enough time that it gets monotonous but get rid of the political forums. It has no place here. I could go through the arguments pro and con but we know what they are. I rarely look at them (if at all) and can't remember posting in them here. It's not that much of a stretch to say that they were probably a contributing cause to the downfall of the BNBB.

Out, out, darn political forums!!

[ajf67]

Hey Brad,

I can totally understand your view on this, but I still support keeping them. I think they can be places where there is intelligent conversation and learning. It just comes back to people behaving themselves, keeping things in perspective, and acting like adults.

And Jazzmoose, feel free. Unlike SACDs, there's no copyright protection!