***Home Plate***

[Jazzdog]

Well, The Marlins were impressive. Beckett, Conine, Pierre. A damn good little squad. Yankees couldn't hit the ball. It must have been like porn for a lot of you guys. Except I doubt if there are any actual Marlins fans posting here

Hell, I think I only know ONE Marlins fan, and he lives in Florida. Aside from him, I know of NO ONE who actually wanted the Marlins to win. Most people I talked to wanted the Yankees to lose. Even though the Marlins ousted the Giants, people around here don't like the Yanks so much. So it goes!

I didn't really watch the series, though I did watch the last 3 innings of last nights game, and I gotta tell ya, by the 7th, the Yanks sure did look like losers.

Gotta tip my hat to the Yanks though, the most expensive losers in World Series history. Thats gotta make ya proud!

[Big Wheel]

Except I doubt if there are any actual Marlins fans posting here, so I'd imagine that routing against the dominant team (instead of for y'r own teams-- who also watched) must be like getting sloppy seconds.

Hey, I'm from Miami--went to the ticker-tape parade in '97--and now a proud member of the Red Sox Nation, so this Series was TWICE as good for me. THREE times if you consider that Miami had a Mets farm team before we got a team in the bigs, and that the first game I ever went to was in Shea!

[BruceH]

Ah, the Yankees lose. That sure does have a nice sound to it.

Yes, indeedy!

And why can't the World Series go back to best-of-nine? I don't see anything wrong with that.

[ghost of miles]

I didn't much follow the Series after the suicide of singer-songwriter Elliott Smith earlier this week. Frankly, I found that much more depressing than the possible spectacle of the Yankees losing the Series. The only thing they need to change is Steinbrenner's expectation that they win it every time out. That's absurd and utterly at odds with reality. (Of course he's not going to change, though.) Chemistry is a very subtle element, and (pace their pulling it out against the Sox in the ALCS), this team of the past two years, though better on paper, does not have the killer ability to win that the teams of the O'Neill/Martinez/Brosius era did. Paul O'Neill could be 1-23 and he'd still slap a single when they needed it most; Chuck Knoblauch, who struggled during his years w/the Yanks, still had a knack for coming up with big hits in the clutch. But that era ended two years ago in Arizona during the ninth inning of Game 7.

As for Yankee-bashing, whatever... All of the Yankee fans on this board seem to be the model of decorum. I've rooted for them for 28 years now, through good times & bad, and the Torre years have been a sheer joy. Classy manager, classy players, multiethnic teams... I can understand why people hated them in the Reggie/Billy Martin era, but now it just seems like excessive sour grapes. Did people hate the A's this way in the 70s? Or the Reds, for that matter? And plenty of owners try to buy championships these days. Plenty. The Yanks have more money partly because they're in one of the nation's best TV markets. Also, many of their dynasty players this time around have been homegrown--Bernie Williams, Derek Jeter, Andy Pettite, Mariano Rivera, Posada, Soriano... All of whom seem to be genuinely nice human beings as well. And I don't think you could find a more decent-spirited manager than Joe Torre.

My congratulations to the Marlins, who clearly were the better team. Matthew, I agree about the desolation of the long winter! I'm beginning my post/pre-season reading with PRESS BOX RED, the story of sportswriter Lester Rodney, who wrote columns for the Daily Worker and who helped open & sustain the drive to eliminate the color line in professional baseball.

See y'all round the hot-stove.

[paul secor]

I can't add much to ghost of miles' eloquent statement. When the Marlins won the series, I thought about Muhammed Ali after losing the first Frazier fight. Some of his handlers wanted him to avoid the press. His response was something to the affect that he talked to the press when he won, and he'd talk to the press now that he'd lost. Congratulations to the Marlins. I hope that their management is able to keep that team together, and I hope that the fans in Miami will support their team now that they've come back from the depths.

It's been a helluva season.

[Bright Moments]

Except I doubt if there are any actual Marlins fans posting here

hey, what am i, chopped liver? go back and read my "go marlins" posts! I'LL BE AT THE TICKER TAPE PARADE DOWN FLAGLER STREET ON TUESDAY!!!!

[ghost of miles]

Except I doubt if there are any actual Marlins fans posting here

hey, what am i, chopped liver? go back and read my "go marlins" posts! I'LL BE AT THE TICKER TAPE PARADE DOWN FLAGLER STREET ON TUESDAY!!!!

Enjoy it, man! I'm sure it will be a blast. Can you imagine the way Beckett must be feeling? 23 and on top of the world...

[BFrank]

The big question is........are the Marlins "one hit wonders", or are they the real deal? Did they just have a streak of great fortune like last year's Angels, or can they continue this into next season and beyond?

Spring training is just a few months away ... I can now breeze through the sports section without feeling guilty.

[doubleM]

I may have missed the real Marlins fan's post. My apologies and Kudos to you and your boys. They rocked all through the playoffs. As to what Ghost wrote, I don't quite get the hatred, either. If you've ever been to a sports bar, and seen the type of posturing and machismo that often occurs in those places, it puts in to perspective that some people (probably unconsciously) obviously work out some of their issues this way. I don't know if this (Yankee bashing to this embarrassing of an extreme) is an example of the same phenomenon. But it could be argued. There's nothing wrong with some angst, I just think that it gets misplaced sometimes. About the Marlins next year, that will be interesting to see. With the full compliment of healthy players, these guys could have a great team in '04. And Yanni will be in the house!

[Bright Moments]

And Yanni will be in the house!

forget about yanni, his violinist, karen briggs ("the lady in red") is incredible!

oh and the MARLINS RULE!!!!!

[Dan Gould]

Yankee bashing is mysterious or suprising as to its extent? You've got to be kidding!

Take 26 World Championships, add in the most obnoxious, arrogant fans in the world, plus an insufferably smug owner who buys pennants like Dennis Koslowski bought companies and the reason why people despize the Yankees ought to be self-evident.

[JSngry]

For real - I remember people hating the Yankees in the '50s, and that was already a long stretch into THEIR stretch.

[Brad]

Dan seems to have said it all but here in NY, there's really no middle ground. The Yankee fans love to give it to the Mets and vice versa. We loath each other. This really dates back to when NY had three teams. It was probably more virulent then with the players on all three teams hating each other passionately. The Giants hated the Dodgers and vice versa and together they hated the Yankees.

When both NL teams left New York, Yankee haters had to wait until the Mets came into being. The Mets traditional cap is a combination of the Giants NY and Dodger Blue. That basically continued the rivalry that has been going on since the old Baltimore Orioles moved to NY in the early 1900s. They changed their names to the Highlanders (because that's where they played in Manhattan) and then to the Yankees. Usually, you became a fan of the team that your parents rooted for. In my case, my father was a Dodger fan and my mother a Giants fan. So, I become a Mets fan. My first game in 1962 was at the old Polo Grounds where the Giants used to play. I saw Hank Aaron beat the Mets 4-3 and I still have the program.

So, that's why I don't like the Yankees. I'm sure you'd find the same thing in Chicago. And I'll bet before the Braves to Milwaukee, you had the same thing in Boston.

Ah, the Yankees loooose. Just love that ring

[doubleM]

Well, isn't this a conundrum? 26 World Championships can serve as a catalyst for hatred, or a testament to greatness. I think that as long as there are some well-grounded fans (see Ghost), who focus on the more fundamental aspects of a team (it's players abilities, attitudes, character), the debate will remain lively. Ill will and heavy hearts (hatred) have been around longer than the game of baseball. I don't expect to see that change. It's those peoples' ulcers. But I do think it's important to remember that there are some Yankee fans all over the planet who are O.K. with other teams' success.

[vajerzy]

I'm glad the Marlins won- I'm an NL guy who always roots for the NL.

While the Marlins were celebrating on the field, I kept on hearing New York, New York by Frank Sinatra, and I didn't hear any applause from the Yankees fans for the Marlins- they played a great series. And from someone who was at the game- there was no script on the message board congratulating the Marlins being 2003 World Series champions.

Classless act by the Yankees

[doubleM]

Vajerzy--Do you mean "script on the message board" at the Stadium? If so, is it customary for a team to congratulate them in that fashion? I mean, they have press conferences and such for one team to acknowledge the "good game" of it's opponent...but I haven't heard of it happening marquee-style, or ceremoniously on the opposing field. But yeah, playing "New York, New York" by Sinatra in that situation is gauche, trite, and embarrassing.

[Dan Gould]

Yes, I'd say, offhand, that it is traditional, if the clinching victory takes place on its home field, then the losers post "Congratulations ____, **** World Champions"

I can tell you for a fact that with two outs in the 11th inning of Game Six, that very message flashed on Shea Stadium's board.

[doubleM]

Well, that's a drag if that's true and how it actually went down. I doubt if it was a decision by management, but whoever botched the script shouldn't be proud. I've never been to a championship game, on that level.

[Adam]

World Series winners:

http://www.mistupid.com/sports/worldseries.htm

[Brad]

Steinbrenner would never let the board operator post a congrats message. If that person did that, he'd be looking for work today.

What conundrum. Of course success breeds contempt. Success also breeds arrogance. It's that arrogance that ticks off people. No kidding, they have their fans. I know a few nice ones but for the most part they're arrogant. That is why people delight in their losing. Steinbrenner only adds to this.

[Chuck Nessa]

Now Grady's been canned by Boston.

[vajerzy]

Vajerzy--Do you mean "script on the message board" at the Stadium?

Yes, I meant posting a message on the scoreboard.....The person I talked to didn't remember seeing a congratulatory message to the Marlins- now I'm going from what he saw, or didn't see.....but I would expect something stating "Marlins- 2003 World Series Champions" or something to that effect. I hope someone can refute me because that woulld be in poor taste if the Yankees didn't acknowledge the Marlins.

[Dan Gould]

No surprise there, Chuck. While its true that players "wanted to play" for Grady, there was just no way he could come back after his failure to pull Pedro. Could you imagine Opening Day in Fenway and the home manager is jeered mercilessly? On top of that, the top guys are total stats geeks-they even hired Bill James last year. Grady goes by guts and guesses and was probably totally unaware that on the first 100 pitches of a game, the league hit like .220 off of Pedro, but something like .380 on pitches 100-130 or whatever. Someone in the Globe said, well, its a tiny sample size-only 30+ batters faced pitches 100 and above. But there's a lesson there! There was a *reason* why Pedro didn't face many batters past 100 pitches.

Anyway, while I appreciate the job he did managing the clubhouse, we need a smarter strategic manager, and there are a lot of those around, or at least a lot of possible candidates. I think an excellent one would be Mike Hargrove, shafted by the O's but a pretty good baseball man, did a good job in Cleveland where Manny was happy to play for him, and a good manager for what promises to be a veteran type team.

C'mon April! (Just give us some great soap operas from the House of Steinbrenner in the meantime!)

Edited October 27, 2003 by Dan Gould

[Dan Gould]

Another reason I'll be glad to see someone else is when the Sox come down to Fort Lauderdale to play the Orioles, I won't have to go ask Grady to autograph a baseball. I just missed him last year, and I seriously doubt I could give him a cheery "Hey skip!" greeting in a few months. I'd be stifling the urge to say "what the f*)*** hell were you thinking you bleeping moron?"

[doubleM]

Conundrum being in the recursive argument that pits the Yankees success making them great, against the same measure (success) making them despicable. If you can get a lifetime Yankee fan to say, "O.K., let's join you in hating the Yankees because of the sheer force of your hatred", you will have solved the puzzle.