Miles Davis & Bill Evans

[Matthew]

herbie is not known for his ballads.

The perverse, music critic in me asks: Isn't all of Hancocks' playing in the Plugged Nickel set, ballad playing?

[Bright Moments]

herbie is not known for his ballads.

The perverse, music critic in me asks: Isn't all of Hancocks' playing in the Plugged Nickel set, ballad playing?

that is not what he is known for (i play ballads too - but thats not what i'm known for either! )

Edited October 5, 2009 by Bright Moments

[Matthew]

herbie is not known for his ballads.

The perverse, music critic in me asks: Isn't all of Hancocks' playing in the Plugged Nickel set, ballad playing?

that is not what he is known for (i play ballads too - but thats not what i'm known for either! )

The point that I'm trying to make is that the influence does not have to solely reside in how a pianist plays ballads, it goes off into whole other areas of a person's playing.

[JSngry]

Evan, I love you man, I hope you know that, so take this as one friend to another - you're wrong about all of this.

[Bright Moments]

Evan, I love you man, I hope you know that, so take this as one friend to another - you're wrong about all of this.

ok jim - thanks for telling me with love!

(surely i'm not ALL wrong though!)

Edited October 5, 2009 by Bright Moments

[JSngry]

(surely i'm not ALL wrong though!)

Well, you got the early OP influence right...

I think where everybody's going off track, though, is looking for just one or two guys as being "the" ones who opened things up harmonically, when the truth is there was a whole bunch of people looking at different approaches to tonality. If you "study music" in an ongoing fashion, sooner or later you're gonna go there.

[Teasing the Korean]

If you "study music" in an ongoing fashion, sooner or later you're gonna go there.

You're right, but there are express trains. Bill Evans was an express train for me. Maybe not for everyone, but for me.

[Bright Moments]

(surely i'm not ALL wrong though!)

Well, you got the early OP influence right...

I think where everybody's going off track, though, is looking for just one or two guys as being "the" ones who opened things up harmonically, when the truth is there was a whole bunch of people looking at different approaches to tonality. If you "study music" in an ongoing fashion, sooner or later you're gonna go there.

indeed!

[Bright Moments]

OMG how did i miss this!!! watermelon man is harmonically identical to polkadots and moonbeams!!

my bad!

[JSngry]

I believe that Bill Evans's approach overall pointed to a new direction that he himself might not have followed...

I think this is a quite valid statement...Herbie worked through early Evans influence fairly quickly....truthfully, I think he got on his own road pretty quickly..the way he comped for Wayne, the voicings & harmonies & textural approaches, I don't think Bill Evans would have even thought about going there...Bill was quite happy playing finely honed "trio songs", Herbie was thinking orchestral and allowed Tony & Wayne to do the same (as was also their natural wont to a large extent).

Bottom line for me, I see Evans as a hugely important voice, but not so much for what that voice spoke itself as for what it stirred in the imaginations of other voices, voices who would speak more strongly, more boldly, and more clearly defined than the voice that initially inspired them.

[Guy Berger]

One of the interesting things about Bill Evans is that while you can certainly categorize his playing as "conservative" in some respects, his harmonic approach really set the stage for the next generation of piano players such as Herbie Hancock.

while herbie acknowledges evans as an influence - his major influence was oscar peterson.

Ironically enough, one of Miles's least favorite pianists!

compare when herbie played with miles with when evans played and you will see - THERE IS NO COMPARASION TO BE MADE!

I'm sure we can find plenty of other examples showing the link, but here's an obvious one - "Circle" on Miles Smiles.

herbie and miles played fusion - because that's what miles wanted to play.

Most of Herbie's work with Miles pre-dated Miles's experiments with jazz-rock, and that's what most people are talking about.

[Teasing the Korean]

OMG how did i miss this!!! watermelon man is harmonically identical to polkadots and moonbeams!!

What is this?

[Bright Moments]

OMG how did i miss this!!! watermelon man is harmonically identical to polkadots and moonbeams!!

What is this?

either a joke or i am really "out of touch!"

[king ubu]

As for Hancock playing "ballads"... his most delicate touch and endless flow of ideas in his best years (I'd say 65-68 though I do love the Mwandishi band a lot as well, but it's so different) often had an extremely lyrical touch to it, no matter what tempos he played in... check out his best solos of that time ("Circle" has been mentioned) and you might get in touch again...

[Big Wheel]

I believe that Bill Evans's approach overall pointed to a new direction that he himself might not have followed...

I think this is a quite valid statement...Herbie worked through early Evans influence fairly quickly....truthfully, I think he got on his own road pretty quickly..the way he comped for Wayne, the voicings & harmonies & textural approaches, I don't think Bill Evans would have even thought about going there...Bill was quite happy playing finely honed "trio songs", Herbie was thinking orchestral and allowed Tony & Wayne to do the same (as was also their natural wont to a large extent).

Bottom line for me, I see Evans as a hugely important voice, but not so much for what that voice spoke itself as for what it stirred in the imaginations of other voices, voices who would speak more strongly, more boldly, and more clearly defined than the voice that initially inspired them.

I think this is fairly close to the mark. In terms of pure playing, the left-hand voicings Evans (and Wynton Kelly) played were a big influence on almost everyone in the next generation. Herbie took those voicings and used them as a jumping-off point. Example: that break on bar 7 of "Eye of the Hurricane" off Maiden Voyage. On the one hand, Bill Evans never would have played that chord in this context. It's a dense voicing so it's possible I didn't transcribe it right, but I think the notes are (low to high) D, G, Ab, C and then in the right hand, G, Bb, Db, Gb. There are multiple dissonant elements in this chord, but the biggest dissonances come from the Gb, G, and Ab and C, Db, and D all existing in the voicing at the same time - putting 3 adjacent semitones in the same chord like that is generally regarded as a big no-no if you want to sound "good" or "inside". The whole notion of "inside" in a way really can be thought of as having Bill Evans as a major boundary, at least as far as the piano goes.

On the other hand, the left hand structure is PURE Bill Evans. That way of putting the 9th and 13th along with the 3rd and 7th in the left hand* - Evans was a huge popularizer of that style. Herbie took that sound, used it as a base, and then blew it wide open.

Compositionally, there's no question about it. I mean, how can you listen to everything that came before and then everything that came after a tune like "Gloria's Step" and say that Evans wasn't influencing that approach? Edit: I forgot that GS was actually composed by LaFaro, but I think the point still holds if you consider the trio's influence as a unit. Yeah, people had been fooling around here and there with getting away from the circle of fifths in the tunes they played, but what Evans and LaFaro did really crystallized things.

*I'm assuming the root of this chord is Bb, although truth be told I don't remember what the bass plays.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Big Wheel

[Shrdlu]

Bill had already left Miles' group before Kind of Blue was recorded. Miles brought him in for that because of the nature of the tunes. Wynton Kelly wasn't right for them.

Bill left the sextet partly because black audiences didn't take too well to Miles having a white pianist.

I don't think Herbie was in any way influenced by Oscar Peterson. Never even heard that suggested before.

[Bright Moments]

well the herbie hancock website states:

Beginnings: Early Life and the Miles Davis Quintet

Born in Chicago in 1940, Herbie was a child piano prodigy who performed a Mozart piano concerto with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra at the tender age of 11. He began playing jazz in high school, initially influenced by Oscar Peterson and Bill Evans.

Herbie's webpage

[Shrdlu]

Well it sure didn't last.

[fasstrack]

In retrospect I enjoy Bill's work with that rhythm section and that period generally best. The Vanguard stuff and forward I find I have to be in the mood for. He was less into swinging, more into the 3-way conversation---which is great, too. I also prefer Scotty out of the group, say, with Victor Feldman----for the same reasons. But I love Bill's sensitivity and touch, and his way with the American Songbook. He was a contributor of significance.

I think enough has been written about Bill's contribution to that group (including uncredited compositions). I think people reach a certain plateau and they sense when it's time to move on. Everybody in that group became a star afterwards, and rightfully so. You can't keep great talent and potential leaders from doing their thing too long----or you get a group of all leaders. Let's just be glad it (that quintet of Miles and the sextet) happened.

Edited October 29, 2009 by fasstrack

[Hot Ptah]

On Marian McPartland's "Piano Jazz" show with Bill Evans, which I have on CD, Evans said that he was the sole composer of "Blue in Green", but Miles took the composer credit on the album.

Marian asked him how he felt about Miles taking that composer credit, whether he was upset about it.

Evans said that he gained so much from the experience of playing with Miles, both musically and in terms of boosting his career, that he could not be unhappy with Miles over it.

So one thing I take from that exchange is that Evans had a career plan which was different than being Miles' sideman for a long time.

[Teasing the Korean]

I wish Bill Evans had done more records that weren't in a piano trio setting. I know that was his thing, but it's not my favorite format.

[WorldB3]

while herbie acknowledges evans as an influence - his major influence was oscar peterson.

compare when herbie played with miles with when evans played and you will see - THERE IS NO COMPARASION TO BE MADE!

i cannot fathom any similarities between evans and hancock except that the both hit the 88 black and white keys (as opposed to monk who played the cracks!)

Give "A Tribute to Someone" off My Point Of View another spin. He does sound almost exactly like Bill Evans on it, which was his intention.

[Shrdlu]

Bill was definitely an influence on Herbie, and so, at least second-hand, Nat Cole must have been. As Herbie is so versatile, you don't always hear it.

[Daniel A]

while herbie acknowledges evans as an influence - his major influence was oscar peterson.

compare when herbie played with miles with when evans played and you will see - THERE IS NO COMPARASION TO BE MADE!

i cannot fathom any similarities between evans and hancock except that the both hit the 88 black and white keys (as opposed to monk who played the cracks!)

Give "A Tribute to Someone" off My Point Of View another spin. He does sound almost exactly like Bill Evans on it, which was his intention.

I always thought early Herbie Hancock, not least on "A Tribute to Someone" sounded a bit like Victor Feldman (that's what Miles thought too, I suppose).

[Rosco]

I wish Bill Evans had done more records that weren't in a piano trio setting. I know that was his thing, but it's not my favorite format.

IMO, the few sessions he did with larger groups tend to be less satisfying. Bill was often surprisingly diffident behind horn players (the Miles group notwithstanding)