Larry Kart Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Going beyond my normal areas of interest and experience, I was listening yesterday to this 1998 disc (with Gary Thomas, bass guitarist Matthew Garrison, keyboardist Otmaro Ruiz, percussionist Victor Williams, and Dennis Chambers) and enjoying it a good deal when I got to one track "Fallen Angels" that included a series of rapid-fire exchanges between two soloists -- one of them obviously the leader, and the other...? It sounds, in fact, almost like McLaughlin is playing exchanges with himself -- so similar is the thinking and the sound of the two (if there are indeed two) instruments -- but it seemed like it would be both unlikely to imitate the feel of two players exchanging ideas if that wasn't the case and also rather pointless. So if it is two players, does anyone know who the second one might be? All I could think of was Ruiz, with his keyboard adjusted so that it sounded very close to the sound of JM's guitar, but if so kudos to Ruiz for coming up with some quite virtuosic quick-witted stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Going beyond my normal areas of interest and experience... ...as with the Metheny/Scofield album too? Are you beginning to explore the, for lack of a better term, "post-fusion" musics being made? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Going beyond my normal areas of interest and experience... ...as with the Metheny/Scofield album too? Are you beginning to explore the, for lack of a better term, "post-fusion" musics being made?Not specifically, though it looks that way. It's just that recently and semi-randomly I've picked up a fair amount of stuff of all sorts (jazz, classical, what have you) from Half-Price Books that's outside "my normal areas of interest and experience," in part because one can return stuff there (or if it's from a library de-acessioning sale, because it cost maybe $1 or $2), and just now am I sitting down and listening to it in a more than cursory, "OK, think I'll keep this" manner. What I'm hoping to find is some basic sense of physical/musical/emotional intensity, plus some sense that things are being done differently than I'm used to, and on this album and the Scofield/Metheny that's what I've found. Feels good.P.S. Something else I found and listened to yesterday was Werner Albert's CPO recording of Hindemith's "Pittsburgh" Symphony, his final orchestral work, which is much better than what I'd thought it would be for the most part but that ends with an absolutely lunatic setting of some popular in that city pro-Pittsburgh song, like a football fight song or the equivalent in tone of "Chicago, That Toddlin' Town." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 'Mr. Hindemith’s composition ends strongly on a theme based on a Pittsburgh folk song [not an actual folk song; it was co-composed by Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger] “Pittsburgh is a Grand Old Town.” … There is a beautiful passage for muted strings played against a tympani beat in the second movement, and this is followed by a stirring march. Mr. Hindemith employs a Pennsylvania Dutch ditty, “Hab Lumbedruwwel mit me lumbeschatz,” which can be translated very roughly into the vernacular as “My girl friend is giving me a rough time.”' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Larry, if you're starting to check out (relatively) younger guitarists, I strongly suggest that you sample Charlie Hunter's work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 So nobody here knows the answer to my question? I would have thought there'd be some McLaughlin-ites on the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 They'll come out of the woodwork soon enough...hopefully. Say something critical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted March 7, 2013 Report Share Posted March 7, 2013 Mclaughlin's sound is so processed that anything is possible, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 It's probably the only McLaughlin album I don't have! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarThrower Posted March 8, 2013 Report Share Posted March 8, 2013 ^^^ Same here! I have The Heart Of Things (Live In Paris), but not the studio album. The melodic interplay on Fallen Angels is between McLaughlin and Gary Thomas. This is a mellow tune with no rapid fire exchanges. It's more like sinewy melodic lines. At least, the live version is so. Are you thinking of another track? Anyway, if you enjoy JM, his early 90s trio was fantastic! Live At The Royal Festival Hall, and Que Alegria feature some great tunes and improvisation. He was playing a nylon string guitar with MIDI interface, but I prefer this sound to his bland electric chorus tone. These records feature Trilok Gurtu on percussion, and electric bassists Kai Eckhardt, and Dominic Di Piazza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) The first McLaughlin I had (apart from the funny one with 'Devadip"), was My Goals Beyond and Extrapolation, a pretty great place to start. The first release I was able to catch up to 'in real time' was Mahavishnu in 1984. I was so pissed off with that album, I think I have resented him ever since Still have no idea about the answer to the question though. Edited March 9, 2013 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 ^^^Same here! I have The Heart Of Things (Live In Paris), but not the studio album. The melodic interplay on Fallen Angels is between McLaughlin and Gary Thomas. This is a mellow tune with no rapid fire exchanges. It's more like sinewy melodic lines. At least, the live version is so. Are you thinking of another track?Anyway, if you enjoy JM, his early 90s trio was fantastic! Live At The Royal Festival Hall, and Que Alegria feature some great tunes and improvisation. He was playing a nylon string guitar with MIDI interface, but I prefer this sound to his bland electric chorus tone. These records feature Trilok Gurtu on percussion, and electric bassists Kai Eckhardt, and Dominic Di Piazza.Must have gotten my tracks confused, maybe it's the next one, but there's no way the exchanges I heard are with Gary Thomas, unless he's playing through some device that makes his tenor sound pretty much like a guitar. OTOH, if he is playing through such a device, kudos to him and to the device! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Maybe Ruiz was using a guitar patch on his keyboards. I had this album, I didn't like it, maybe I wasn't quite ready for it. If you want to explore more music in this vein Larry, I suggest all the Metheny Group albums, they are all good and have something of value on them. Many people are unable to get past the production, and the sunny nature of some of the music, but it's all really really hip. Lyle Mays' first album is a classic, and as Jim Alfredson told me once, it's still fresh because that direction has not been entirely explored in that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarThrower Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 ^^^ Same here! I have The Heart Of Things (Live In Paris), but not the studio album. The melodic interplay on Fallen Angels is between McLaughlin and Gary Thomas. This is a mellow tune with no rapid fire exchanges. It's more like sinewy melodic lines. At least, the live version is so. Are you thinking of another track? Anyway, if you enjoy JM, his early 90s trio was fantastic! Live At The Royal Festival Hall, and Que Alegria feature some great tunes and improvisation. He was playing a nylon string guitar with MIDI interface, but I prefer this sound to his bland electric chorus tone. These records feature Trilok Gurtu on percussion, and electric bassists Kai Eckhardt, and Dominic Di Piazza. Must have gotten my tracks confused, maybe it's the next one, but there's no way the exchanges I heard are with Gary Thomas, unless he's playing through some device that makes his tenor sound pretty much like a guitar. OTOH, if he is playing through such a device, kudos to him and to the device! It's most likely the keyboard player. There's a tune on the live album with that type of soloing. I think it's called The Divide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 ^^^Same here! I have The Heart Of Things (Live In Paris), but not the studio album. The melodic interplay on Fallen Angels is between McLaughlin and Gary Thomas. This is a mellow tune with no rapid fire exchanges. It's more like sinewy melodic lines. At least, the live version is so. Are you thinking of another track?Anyway, if you enjoy JM, his early 90s trio was fantastic! Live At The Royal Festival Hall, and Que Alegria feature some great tunes and improvisation. He was playing a nylon string guitar with MIDI interface, but I prefer this sound to his bland electric chorus tone. These records feature Trilok Gurtu on percussion, and electric bassists Kai Eckhardt, and Dominic Di Piazza.Must have gotten my tracks confused, maybe it's the next one, but there's no way the exchanges I heard are with Gary Thomas, unless he's playing through some device that makes his tenor sound pretty much like a guitar. OTOH, if he is playing through such a device, kudos to him and to the device!It's most likely the keyboard player. There's a tune on the live album with that type of soloing. I think it's called The Divide.Yes, that's the one. And it's the live album I have. Many thanks. In any case, some very adept playing IMO and pretty "hot" too, in the good sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Lark Ascending Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 (edited) I must give this another listen. I loved McLaughlin in the Miles bands, the first Mahavishnu and in Shakti. But have always struggled with that processed guitar sound he adopted in the 80s. In the later Shakti Remembered groups (I saw a couple of them and really like the albums) that doesn't matter so much because the acoustic instruments around him provide contrast. But I often can't tell what is a guitar and what a keyboard - such a pity because he has such a great guitar sound. My favourite from these years is: Something of a pot pourri of his different styles but one I've always enjoyed. For my favourite McLaughlin album you have to go much earlier: Edited March 9, 2013 by A Lark Ascending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarThrower Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 ^^^ Same here! I have The Heart Of Things (Live In Paris), but not the studio album. The melodic interplay on Fallen Angels is between McLaughlin and Gary Thomas. This is a mellow tune with no rapid fire exchanges. It's more like sinewy melodic lines. At least, the live version is so. Are you thinking of another track? Anyway, if you enjoy JM, his early 90s trio was fantastic! Live At The Royal Festival Hall, and Que Alegria feature some great tunes and improvisation. He was playing a nylon string guitar with MIDI interface, but I prefer this sound to his bland electric chorus tone. These records feature Trilok Gurtu on percussion, and electric bassists Kai Eckhardt, and Dominic Di Piazza. Must have gotten my tracks confused, maybe it's the next one, but there's no way the exchanges I heard are with Gary Thomas, unless he's playing through some device that makes his tenor sound pretty much like a guitar. OTOH, if he is playing through such a device, kudos to him and to the device! It's most likely the keyboard player. There's a tune on the live album with that type of soloing. I think it's called The Divide. Yes, that's the one. And it's the live album I have. Many thanks. In any case, some very adept playing IMO and pretty "hot" too, in the good sense. Yeah, that's a great track! In fact the whole album really kicks butt! And this thread inspired me to fill in some gaps in my McLaughlin collection. I just ordered 5 Peace Band, and Electric Guitarist. I picked up Apocalypse last week, and I'm loving this one! A great fusion of jazz, rock, and orchestration. I can't believe I ignored this album for 30 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 "Electric Guitarist" was the last "non-Shakti" that I bought, I confess. I thought he was amazing through the most extreme Mahavishnu and the "Love, Devotion, Surrender" session and after that I was on to other things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 "Electric Guitarist" was the last "non-Shakti" that I bought, I confess. I thought he was amazing through the most extreme Mahavishnu and the "Love, Devotion, Surrender" session and after that I was on to other things. Do you have a preference for Devotion over LDS, they're to sides of the same coin I suppose. Just hardcore blowing sessions. The spectre of Hendrix is there for me more on Devotion, but I haven't listened to either in a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 I like them both for different reasons. I probably play LDS more often, because I just love the rough and ready sound and then there's the beauty of Carlos' sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 I like them both for different reasons. I probably play LDS more often, because I just love the rough and ready sound and then there's the beauty of Carlos' sound. The snap and crackle of my old Devotion vinyl has reduced the sound to pretty rough and ready for me on that one as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 Mine's pretty clean, was playing a side this afternoon as a matter of fact, not pristine, but the rough and ready is in the recording and the playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 They both have the virtue of spontaneity. The guitar tones are primo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted March 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 I recall a 1985 McLaughlin performance with the Tonight Show orchestra (i.e. Doc Severinsen's TS Orch., with Carson the host, though I don't see Doc there) that left the members of the band fairly well dazzled: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 9, 2013 Report Share Posted March 9, 2013 I have no memories like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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