A possibly heretical statement re Bill Evans' first trio

[JSngry]

Why do I still have the feeling that Bill Evans' was fundamentally conflicted about being a jazz musician, or even about "jazz" in general? Probably not consciously, but still...

[sgcim]

well, just to respond - that conversation was in Evans' kitchen, 35 years ago, so my memory is faded - he told me about his problems with Philly Joe - and, speaking of a dead horse (since I talk about this other musician all the time), he said the following:

"To my mind there were only two alto players from that generation who didn't copy Bird - Lee Konitz and Dave Schildkraut. Dave was amazing."

I once did a gig with an elderly Jewish trumpet player, who was a close friend of Davey Schildkraut, and he said DS was heavy into Jewish mysticism, the Kabala

Bill Evans' recorded output was controlled by Helen Keane; he didn't choose the people he recorded with, Helen did.

I'm sure if it was BE's choice, he would've recorded with musicians like Schildkraut, Don Joseph (whom he had a private session with) Jimmy Raney and others.

[sgcim]

I guess the board will let me know if I'm beating a dead horse here. I've been listening to Evans since starting this thread and still have things to say.

Last night I listened to California Here I Come. It seems like a great idea on paper, with Philly Joe Jones (who Evans idealized). But Bill is pushing so hard it makes for uncomfortable listening. On Gone With the Wind and Round Midnight he sounds almost frenetic. Eddie Gomez's manic soloing doesn't help. It almost foretells the final VV sessions that were recorded and released as Turn Out the Stars. Bill is very edgy on these dates and frequently rushes.

I listened to Barry Harris Plays Tadd Dameron before listening to Bill, and, as far as Bill Evans swinging or not---well I could happily pat my foot to Barry.

I didn't like "California, Here I Come" either, and the Turn Out the Stars sessions were bootleg recordings that had inferior sound recording. Why anyone would bother to listen to or criticize them is beyond me.

As I said before, to characterize BE's recorded output as erratic because of poorly recorded bootleg albums made when he was at death's door is not even worth commenting on...

[Larry Kart]

I guess the board will let me know if I'm beating a dead horse here. I've been listening to Evans since starting this thread and still have things to say.

Last night I listened to California Here I Come. It seems like a great idea on paper, with Philly Joe Jones (who Evans idealized). But Bill is pushing so hard it makes for uncomfortable listening. On Gone With the Wind and Round Midnight he sounds almost frenetic. Eddie Gomez's manic soloing doesn't help. It almost foretells the final VV sessions that were recorded and released as Turn Out the Stars. Bill is very edgy on these dates and frequently rushes.

I listened to Barry Harris Plays Tadd Dameron before listening to Bill, and, as far as Bill Evans swinging or not---well I could happily pat my foot to Barry.

I didn't like "California, Here I Come" either, and the Turn Out the Stars sessions were bootleg recordings that had inferior sound recording. Why anyone would bother to listen to or criticize them is beyond me.

As I said before, to characterize BE's recorded output as erratic because of poorly recorded bootleg albums made when he was at death's door is not even worth commenting on...

As I'm sure you know, the "Turn Out the Stars" set was lavished with praise when it came out. Also, it was not a bootleg I'm pretty sure ("original sessions produced by Helen Keane," it says in the booklet) and was professionally recorded by Malcolm Addey. You and I both think that BE often is in harried form there, but we're apparently in the minority.

OTOH, much though TOTS makes my teeth grind, I find that BE is in quite good form for his latter days on much of "The Last Waltz" -- performances that were dubbed off the mixing board at the Keystone Korner by Todd Barkan and that took place much closer to the very end (8/31-9/8 '80) than what's on TOTS (6/4-6/8 '80). (BE died 9/15 '80). When I first heard TLW, I expected the worst; its virtues were a surprise.

[erwbol]

Is it me or is Joe LaBarbera pretty much inaudible a lot of the time on Consecration (and I assume The Last Waltz)? Talk about inferior recording ...

Edited December 5, 2014 by erwbol

[sgcim]

I guess the board will let me know if I'm beating a dead horse here. I've been listening to Evans since starting this thread and still have things to say.

Last night I listened to California Here I Come. It seems like a great idea on paper, with Philly Joe Jones (who Evans idealized). But Bill is pushing so hard it makes for uncomfortable listening. On Gone With the Wind and Round Midnight he sounds almost frenetic. Eddie Gomez's manic soloing doesn't help. It almost foretells the final VV sessions that were recorded and released as Turn Out the Stars. Bill is very edgy on these dates and frequently rushes.

I listened to Barry Harris Plays Tadd Dameron before listening to Bill, and, as far as Bill Evans swinging or not---well I could happily pat my foot to Barry.

I didn't like "California, Here I Come" either, and the Turn Out the Stars sessions were bootleg recordings that had inferior sound recording. Why anyone would bother to listen to or criticize them is beyond me.

As I said before, to characterize BE's recorded output as erratic because of poorly recorded bootleg albums made when he was at death's door is not even worth commenting on...

As I'm sure you know, the "Turn Out the Stars" set was lavished with praise when it came out. Also, it was not a bootleg I'm pretty sure ("original sessions produced by Helen Keane," it says in the booklet) and was professionally recorded by Malcolm Addey. You and I both think that BE often is in harried form there, but we're apparently in the minority.

OTOH, much though TOTS makes my teeth grind, I find that BE is in quite good form for his latter days on much of "The Last Waltz" -- performances that were dubbed off the mixing board at the Keystone Korner by Todd Barkan and that took place much closer to the very end (8/31-9/8 '80) than what's on TOTS (6/4-6/8 '80). (BE died 9/15 '80). When I first heard TLW, I expected the worst; its virtues were a surprise.

I call any recording of BE that he didn't approve, bootleg, and I've never listened to TOTS so I shouldn't have commented on the recording quality.

Helen Keane was both a curse and a blessing for BE; while she made his music available to a wider audience and took care of ALL of the business aspects of his career, she wasn't a musician, and shouldn't have made every decision for him.

i think he did veer off from his original direction on the "New Jazz Conceptions" due to her, but without her, he might have wound up as a violinist who worked with him back then found him:

banging his head on the piano because he was so disgusted with the wedding gig he was playing!

[Larry Kart]

I guess the board will let me know if I'm beating a dead horse here. I've been listening to Evans since starting this thread and still have things to say.

Last night I listened to California Here I Come. It seems like a great idea on paper, with Philly Joe Jones (who Evans idealized). But Bill is pushing so hard it makes for uncomfortable listening. On Gone With the Wind and Round Midnight he sounds almost frenetic. Eddie Gomez's manic soloing doesn't help. It almost foretells the final VV sessions that were recorded and released as Turn Out the Stars. Bill is very edgy on these dates and frequently rushes.

I listened to Barry Harris Plays Tadd Dameron before listening to Bill, and, as far as Bill Evans swinging or not---well I could happily pat my foot to Barry.

I didn't like "California, Here I Come" either, and the Turn Out the Stars sessions were bootleg recordings that had inferior sound recording. Why anyone would bother to listen to or criticize them is beyond me.

As I said before, to characterize BE's recorded output as erratic because of poorly recorded bootleg albums made when he was at death's door is not even worth commenting on...

As I'm sure you know, the "Turn Out the Stars" set was lavished with praise when it came out. Also, it was not a bootleg I'm pretty sure ("original sessions produced by Helen Keane," it says in the booklet) and was professionally recorded by Malcolm Addey. You and I both think that BE often is in harried form there, but we're apparently in the minority.

OTOH, much though TOTS makes my teeth grind, I find that BE is in quite good form for his latter days on much of "The Last Waltz" -- performances that were dubbed off the mixing board at the Keystone Korner by Todd Barkan and that took place much closer to the very end (8/31-9/8 '80) than what's on TOTS (6/4-6/8 '80). (BE died 9/15 '80). When I first heard TLW, I expected the worst; its virtues were a surprise.

I call any recording of BE that he didn't approve, bootleg, and I've never listened to TOTS so I shouldn't have commented on the recording quality.

Helen Keane was both a curse and a blessing for BE; while she made his music available to a wider audience and took care of ALL of the business aspects of his career, she wasn't a musician, and shouldn't have made every decision for him.

i think he did veer off from his original direction on the "New Jazz Conceptions" due to her, but without her, he might have wound up as a violinist who worked with him back then found him:

banging his head on the piano because he was so disgusted with the wedding gig he was playing!

Helene Keane became BE's personal manager in 1962 -- by that time "New Jazz Conceptions" and the the style associated with it were distant specks in the rearview mirror. Heck, by that time, the music of the LaFaro-Motian Village Vanguard trio also was a thing of the past.

[jeffcrom]

I wouldn't call any recording approved by the artist's executor(s) a bootleg. And don't forget that Evans selected nine tracks from the Turn Out the Stars sessions for release on a double LP. That issue never happened, but those tracks eventually were issued on the single-CD version of Turn Out the Stars. That's the one I have, rather than than box set.

[John L]

I never listen to Turn Out the Stars anymore. I find other recordings from the period, including the Last Waltz to be more satisfying.

[jeffcrom]

I never listen to Turn Out the Stars anymore. I find other recordings from the period, including the Last Waltz to be more satisfying.

Yeah, I've never felt compelled to get the box, since I seldom spin my one-CD version.

I might play it today, though, now that I'm thinking about it.

[jazzbo]

I like the set fine, and gave a copy to my Dad when the cheap version came out, and he likes it. I think the sound is great personally.

[Clunky]

I never listen to Turn Out the Stars anymore. I find other recordings from the period, including the Last Waltz to be more satisfying.

Yeah, I've never felt compelled to get the box, since I seldom spin my one-CD version.

I might play it today, though, now that I'm thinking about it.

Prompted by this thread I pulled out the TOTS box for the first time in several years. I've been on several BE kicks over the years and ended up with a fair number of his discs ( mainly bought cheap ) . Whilst I respect everything I hear on this set nothing really gets my either going or feeling "isn't that beautiful". Undoubtably some very good tracks mixed in with average ones. I feel equally as diffident about late Art Pepper. I'd rather listen to Martial Solal than late BE and that's what I inevitably do. If I'm honest with myself I bought way more BE than I have patience to listen to. It's just not that engaging ( for me). His Riverside albums are another matter ....

[erwbol]

I've been listening to Turn Out The Stars for the past two days as well. Fortunately for me my musical intelligence is limited and I was able to enjoy the music like I had Consecration in the past. I've hardly listened to Bill Evans for the last seven years and only bought TOTS when Nonesuch reissued it in 2009. I enjoyed being able to hear every nuance of LaBarbera's drumming. On Consecration and Last Waltz his brush work is almost inaudible a lot of the time and I felt like I was listening to piano bass duets. Irritating.

[jeffcrom]

I've been listening to Turn Out The Stars for the past two days as well. Fortunately for me my musical intelligence is limited.....

No, no, no! Personally, I'm glad you're enjoying it. I'm planning on spinning the single CD tonight.

[sgcim]

I guess the board will let me know if I'm beating a dead horse here. I've been listening to Evans since starting this thread and still have things to say.

Last night I listened to California Here I Come. It seems like a great idea on paper, with Philly Joe Jones (who Evans idealized). But Bill is pushing so hard it makes for uncomfortable listening. On Gone With the Wind and Round Midnight he sounds almost frenetic. Eddie Gomez's manic soloing doesn't help. It almost foretells the final VV sessions that were recorded and released as Turn Out the Stars. Bill is very edgy on these dates and frequently rushes.

I listened to Barry Harris Plays Tadd Dameron before listening to Bill, and, as far as Bill Evans swinging or not---well I could happily pat my foot to Barry.

I didn't like "California, Here I Come" either, and the Turn Out the Stars sessions were bootleg recordings that had inferior sound recording. Why anyone would bother to listen to or criticize them is beyond me.

As I said before, to characterize BE's recorded output as erratic because of poorly recorded bootleg albums made when he was at death's door is not even worth commenting on...

As I'm sure you know, the "Turn Out the Stars" set was lavished with praise when it came out. Also, it was not a bootleg I'm pretty sure ("original sessions produced by Helen Keane," it says in the booklet) and was professionally recorded by Malcolm Addey. You and I both think that BE often is in harried form there, but we're apparently in the minority.

OTOH, much though TOTS makes my teeth grind, I find that BE is in quite good form for his latter days on much of "The Last Waltz" -- performances that were dubbed off the mixing board at the Keystone Korner by Todd Barkan and that took place much closer to the very end (8/31-9/8 '80) than what's on TOTS (6/4-6/8 '80). (BE died 9/15 '80). When I first heard TLW, I expected the worst; its virtues were a surprise.

I call any recording of BE that he didn't approve, bootleg, and I've never listened to TOTS so I shouldn't have commented on the recording quality.

Helen Keane was both a curse and a blessing for BE; while she made his music available to a wider audience and took care of ALL of the business aspects of his career, she wasn't a musician, and shouldn't have made every decision for him.

i think he did veer off from his original direction on the "New Jazz Conceptions" due to her, but without her, he might have wound up as a violinist who worked with him back then found him:

banging his head on the piano because he was so disgusted with the wedding gig he was playing!

Helene Keane became BE's personal manager in 1962 -- by that time "New Jazz Conceptions" and the the style associated with it were distant specks in the rearview mirror. Heck, by that time, the music of the LaFaro-Motian Village Vanguard trio also was a thing of the past.

Wow, I didn't think it was as late as 1962. That explains a lot. As much as I like Tony Bennett, pairing BE and TB was not my idea of a good fit.

I'm glad he's hooked up with Lady Gaga now. I hope they'll be very happy together...

[mjzee]

An appreciation of BE in today's WSJ. Not sure what prompted its printing, but it's a good read: The Bill Evans Legacy.

[Dfrankjazz]

Yeah, you're nuts man) It's like folks that criticize some of Keith's playing..why?..because it wasn't as good as some *other* of his playing! What Bill was doing in these precious moments in his life was so original, so groundbreaking, so beautiful that to even think along the terms you are describing is a drag and a waste. I'm sorry his absolute total original creative genius at this particular early, seminal moment of his evolution doesn't excite you as much as some other of his playing.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Dfrankjazz

[sgcim]

Yeah, you're nuts man) It's like folks that criticize some of Keith's playing..why?..because it wasn't as good as some *other* of his playing! What Bill was doing in these precious moments in his life was so original, so groundbreaking, so beautiful that to even think along the terms you are describing is a drag and a waste. I'm sorry his absolute total original creative genius at this particular early, seminal moment of his evolution doesn't excite you as much as some other of his playing.

Attaboy, Dave!

These guys still don't realize that Bill was the Second Coming as far as most musicians are concerned.

If the world was right, there would be a Bill Evans Day instead of our other stupid holidays.

BTW, I got a lot out of your Bill Evans lessons on youtube.

I session a lot with a cat named Rob Oro, who studied with Andy LaVerne, and Rob is probably the closest thing to Bill on the planet today.