MLB 2016 Season Thread Of Discussions

[Tim McG]

4 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Funny how no one knew anything of a shoulder injury when he went on the DL, figured it was a case of "sucks - itis" and now he's facing shoulder surgery and likely gone for the season.

Here's to a successful rehab, a solid 2017 spring training, and godspeed at his next destination when the Sox unload his salary for a (small) bag of equipment.

Boom.

[Brad]

On April 10, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Brad said:

Mets hitting woes have carried over from spring training. 

This is funny considering how they've been pounding it lately. 

[Tim McG]

Just beat LA.

[JSngry]

Brisbee on Scherzer: http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2016/5/12/11664150/max-scherzer-20-strikeouts?_ga=1.265490828.223985545.1463082352

[ghost of miles]

Jsngry, evidently some bad blood lingering between the Tigers and Jays!

[JSngry]

Well, yeah, Windsor is just across the Rio!!!!!

[JSngry]

http://www.lonestarball.com/2016/5/15/11679904/video-rangers-blue-jays-brawl-odor-bautista-texas-toronto

Ok, seriously i was 100% unlooped from sports today, this was the first I'd heard of this, but all I can say is that afaic, Ryan/Ventura just got vaporized, and if Rookie ever runs for governor, he's got all of my votes.

[Dan Gould]

Bautista getting clocked just instantly became a top-five highlight of the season. And the look on his face was exactly the same as a professional prizefighter looks when he's momentarily stunned and needs to move away and get his head clear.

I didn't see the HBP but who throws at someone in a one-run game in the 8th inning? Bautista's always been a d-bag and that slide - if the fielder's leg isn't coming up and over, he's got torn ligaments and/or broken bones and is out for the year.

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Bautista getting clocked just instantly became a top-five highlight of the season. And the look on his face was exactly the same as a professional prizefighter looks when he's momentarily stunned and needs to move away and get his head clear.

I didn't see the HBP but who throws at someone in a one-run game in the 8th inning? Bautista's always been a d-bag and that slide - if the fielder's leg isn't coming up and over, he's got torn ligaments and/or broken bones and is out for the year.

And per the punch thrown at Rudy Tomjonavich, Bautista's career or worse could be over. Are you a member of the bat-flip police? Having just been through a series between the White Sox and the Rangers, I can tell you that talented though Texas' Odor is, he also is an overtly flamboyant player. IMO the only sane answer to bat-flipping and the like is to throw pitches that don't get hit out of the park, not to get all red-ass afterwards.

We just had one like that with with John Lackey of the Cubs, after some guy on the Pirates hit one out and stood at the plate for a while goggling at how far the ball went -- about 450 feet, as far any HR at Wrigley Field in many years. After the game Lackey said to the press, "How many home runs has he hit?" (very few as it happens, but how many does he need to have it to make what he did less of a crime to Lackey the Baseball Cop?). And then he added ominously, "I have a long memory."

[ghost of miles]

12 hours ago, JSngry said:

Well, yeah, Windsor is just across the Rio!!!!!

Oops, yeah--meant to type "Rangers," don't know why I had Detroit on the brain! 

On an unrelated note, enjoying finally getting to see the vaunted BMC relief line (Betances, Miller, Chapman) in action for the Yankees, though I think the team as a whole is going to struggle to stay above the .500 line this season.  Both the offense and the rotation too spotty--the offense too old and injury-prone, the rotation just a big question mark what with Severino and Pineda's struggles, Tanaka pitching more like a good #3 than an ace, and CC and Nova unreliable for a variety of reasons.  Right now Tanaka and Eovaldi are the only starters I generally feel comfortable with out on the mound. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by ghost of miles

[Dan Gould]

2 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

And per the punch thrown at Rudy Tomjonavich, Bautista's career or worse could be over. Are you a member of the bat-flip police? Having just been through a series between the White Sox and the Rangers, I can tell you that talented though Texas' Odor is, he also is an overtly flamboyant player. IMO the only sane answer to bat-flipping and the like is to throw pitches that don't get hit out of the park, not to get all red-ass afterwards.

We just had one like that with with John Lackey of the Cubs, after some guy on the Pirates hit one out and stood at the plate for a while goggling at how far the ball went -- about 450 feet, as far any HR at Wrigley Field in many years. After the game Lackey said to the press, "How many home runs has he hit?" (very few as it happens, but how many does he need to have it to make what he did less of a crime to Lackey the Baseball Cop?). And then he added ominously, "I have a long memory."

Your Tomjanovich comparison is highly questionable as he was cold-cocked out of nowhere and Bautista was standing in front of him, jawing after an atrociously dangerous slide (speaking of having careers ended).  Bautista deserved the pop in the face due to the way he came into the bag. Again, does anyone hit a batter intentionally late in a one run game? Highly doubtful.

Not the bat flip police (how could I be while enjoying Ortiz' final tour thru the league?) but that doesn't mean I can't have a visceral dislike of the guy who played dirty and got popped in the face for it.

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

And per the punch thrown at Rudy Tomjonavich, Bautista's career or worse could be over.

Where are you hearing this?

[ghost of miles]

54 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Where are you hearing this?

I think Larry's hypothesizing that such a punch could have had that effect--not that it actually did--in arguing that it should not have been thrown.  If that's the case, though, I'd tend to agree with Dan that the slide was just as bad, if not more so, and that Odor's reaction was not out of proportion.

This ESPN writer thinks that ultimately the Rangers were out of line.  I'll play devil's advocate again and say that I do think they hit Bautista intentionally... yes, only a one-run lead, but it sure looked like a deliberate hit, and Bush said "No comment" after the game when asked if it was deliberate.  Either way, it didn't justify Bautista's slide IMO.

[JSngry]

Oh, so he was talking about Odor's career, not Bautista's?

Hey, all I can say is that I am principled enough to abhor one player punching another player in the face during the course of a game (of course, what they do in their private and/or personal times together is of no concern to me, some folks are into that, ya' know, not for me to judge) but I am in no way principled enough to do anything but LOL, LOTS of LOL at Roogie punching that...Bautista guy smack in the jaw at that specific time under that specific circumstance. Call me inconsistent (or worse!) but as a fan whose sole responsibility is to sit on my ass and watch the game (and admonish any youth I might come into contact with to not do that) hey, hell yeah I'll be inconsistent. Reality vs Theory, Reality always wins, as in this case did the Rangers.

Odor does play hard, and he will want/need to fine-tune the focuses of his energies to a more refined plane than where they currently resonate. So let's start working on that. However, fuck Jose Bautista, and only a jury of his Torontonian peers might possibly convict Roogie for finally drawing some kind of goddamn line against that whinyass onewayer. If it's actions without consequences he wants, sign with WWE. Otherwise, beware motherfucker, beware.

[Larry Kart]

 Sorry, Jim, I meant to say, as Ghost of Miles caught, that given a punch of that force, Bautista's career, like Rudy T's, could have been over. That he and Odor were facing off is neither here nor there IMO; blows like that are not part of any sport except boxing and ultimate fighting. FWIW broadcaster and former player Kevin Millar on the Dan Patrick Show last night said that Bautista's slide, while certainly intentional, was far from career-threatening in execution. Millar added that on the play, anticipating what Bautista would do, Odor tried but failed to throw the relay into Bautista's face. Also Millar said that despite the tightness of the game, the pitch in his view was intentional and also (within basball's red-ass framework of retaliation) kind of candy-assed because Texas waited to hit Bautista until his last AB of the series and of the season between the two teams. My general and main point, though, is that all this "you show me up, I get to plunk you, etc." baseball-police stuff is dangerous garbage. You don't want a guy to hit a HR and then behave like a jerk, show you up, etc., then don't throw him a HR pitch. If he hits a HR, flips a bat, makes faces, etc., then the next time just get him out/win the game.

 

[paul secor]

I'm not a fan of fighting in any sport, and have no interest in the sports where fighting is the whole point - boxing and ultimate fighting - I've come to see the results to people who have participated in boxing. And I find it ridiculous that fighting is encouraged in hockey - the only professional team sport where players with minimal talents are recruited because they can fight. But I could see this coming to a head with Bautista. He's an arrogant guy who likes to show off and who stands fairly close to the plate and takes big wild swings. I'm surprised that more pitchers haven't gone inside on him more often to try and back him off, and that he doesn't get hit by pitches more often. (I'm sure that his getting hit on Sunday was intentional.) But this was something that was going to happen sooner or later.

To refresh memories, Rudy T got hit because he came running off the bench into a situation where two guys were squared off. Kermit Washington saw him come running up out of the corner of his eye, turned and slugged him. Unfortunate, but if you run up to join a fight, bad things can happen. In this case something bad did happen.

[Larry Kart]

Another county heard from. Joe Morgan: "If you were willing to show the other team up, then you've got to be willing to take what goes with it."  

Right -- "what goes with it" as can be found in "The Red-Ass Rules of the Game." To that I would say, again: "If you serve up a HR ball, you've got to  be willing to take what goes with it." Get the man out and there's no problem. Bautista may be a flaming jerk, I'm no expert on his behavior, but a Bautista who's not trotting around the bases is just jerkdom poured on top of an empty salad bowl.

 

[paul secor]

I agree, Larry. No one seems to have a problem with a pitcher making a dramatic arm motion when he strikes out a batter to end an inning or the game. Hitters should have the same option. And hitting a batter because he's hit a home run earlier is just bush league - pitch better.

But the thing with Bautista was something that was waiting to happen, given his attitude and actions over the years.

Edited May 17, 2016 by paul secor

[JSngry]

And not just Bautista, really. If he was just one guy on a team that was otherwise cool enough, it would be, oh, that guy. But the Jays are really accelerating this culture of whininess and bitchiness. It extends to John Gibbons, he's a whinyass one his own self, and had already been tossed from Sunday's game, although that didn't prevent him from coming back on the field during the scuffle.

[paul secor]

An ejected manager coming back onto the field seems is becoming commonplace these days. John Farrell of the Red Sox was thrown out about ten days ago for arguing a strike call. He never left the dugout, and a pitch later when David Ortiz got tossed for throwing equipment after a strikeout call, he came back onto the field to argue again. He was fined, but he should have gotten a game suspension, as should Gibbons - perhaps more, in Gibbons' case.

[Soulstation1]

Chicken shit that the Rangers hit him the last game / last AB

 

[JSngry]

And there's this thing with unrepentant bullies, "don't give them anything to bully", well, yeah, that's Plan A, Plan B, and maybe even Plan C. But sometimes you stay out of the way but you end up in the way anyway. And then, hey, defending yourself is justified. More than justified, it's imperative.

Ok, Odor is not somebody who goes out of his way to avoid anything, the guy's all in on every play, partially because lwast year he got sent down for a lack of spirit way out of line with the amount of talent he has. So he's..."driven". So yeah, he will engage on a challenge, that should be a known quantity by now. But Bautista is the Bluto of Baseball, so...boo hoo about Roogie punching Joey Bats, I's ok that it happened, I'm ok with any suspensions that result, and I'm ready to move on. A bully got his. If Odor does not learn to maintain, someday he will get his. This is how life works while we're trying to keep the peace, it never gets fully kept[t, except maybe in cricket, and I'll be damned if I'm going to start watching cricket. I am too old and life is too short.

47 minutes ago, Soulstation1 said:

Chicken shit that the Rangers hit him the last game / last AB

 

Pretty awesome that they got the DP call, won the boxing match, and took the game.

Less awesome that they parlayed all the "emotional edge" that resulted into a 3-1 loss against Oakland the next night.

Momentum my ass!

[Larry Kart]

56 minutes ago, JSngry said:

And there's this thing with unrepentant bullies, "don't give them anything to bully", well, yeah, that's Plan A, Plan B, and maybe even Plan C. But sometimes you stay out of the way but you end up in the way anyway. And then, hey, defending yourself is justified. More than justified, it's imperative.

Ok, Odor is not somebody who goes out of his way to avoid anything, the guy's all in on every play, partially because lwast year he got sent down for a lack of spirit way out of line with the amount of talent he has. So he's..."driven". So yeah, he will engage on a challenge, that should be a known quantity by now. But Bautista is the Bluto of Baseball, so...boo hoo about Roogie punching Joey Bats, I's ok that it happened, I'm ok with any suspensions that result, and I'm ready to move on. A bully got his. If Odor does not learn to maintain, someday he will get his. This is how life works while we're trying to keep the peace, it never gets fully kept[t, except maybe in cricket, and I'll be damned if I'm going to start watching cricket. I am too old and life is too short.

Pretty awesome that they got the DP call, won the boxing match, and took the game.

Less awesome that they parlayed all the "emotional edge" that resulted into a 3-1 loss against Oakland the next night.

Momentum my ass!

Again, I'm no expert on the behavior of Mr. Bautista, but just how does someone" bully" someone in the course of playing a game of baseball? Trying to show someone up or to antagonize them, being flamboyant to the point where one violates the b.s. unwritten rules of the game and all that, or just being a flaming jerk, sure -- but how is that "bullying"? Bullying, it seems to me, would have to involve some sort of aggressive threatening behavior that would deflect or prevent opposing players from doing their jobs. Bautista does that to opposing players on a regular basis or even at all? Enlighten me. And if he does do stuff that's outside the actual (not the unwritten) rules of the game, isn't that why we have umpires or, if comes to that, a commissioner?

[JSngry]

Bautista is an attitude bully, not a physical one (although that slide leaned him ahead into that category). People sick of his shit, that's all.

Consider this - if the participants would have been Odor & Edward Encarnation (to use the most frequently cited alternate choice), either the fight would not have happened at all, of else Odor would be being vilified nationally. That is was Bautista, and that many, many people are exhibiting some variation of, hey, you know, the guy got his, even while disapproving of fisticuffs in general and agreeing that Odor will and should rightfully be suspended and possibly also fined (also rightfully), should tell you a lot, if not all, you should want to need to know to better expertize yourself on the behavior of Mr. Bautista.

It's like if somebody threw a pie at Mel Torme in the middle of a gig. No, you don't want to see that kind of thing, but don't tell me you're not gonna laugh about it somewhere, not because it was a pie, but because it was Mel Torme.

[Larry Kart]

58 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Bautista is an attitude bully, not a physical one (although that slide leaned him ahead into that category). People sick of his shit, that's all.

Consider this - if the participants would have been Odor & Edward Encarnation (to use the most frequently cited alternate choice), either the fight would not have happened at all, of else Odor would be being vilified nationally. That is was Bautista, and that many, many people are exhibiting some variation of, hey, you know, the guy got his, even while disapproving of fisticuffs in general and agreeing that Odor will and should rightfully be suspended and possibly also fined (also rightfully), should tell you a lot, if not all, you should want to need to know to better expertize yourself on the behavior of Mr. Bautista.

It's like if somebody threw a pie at Mel Torme in the middle of a gig. No, you don't want to see that kind of thing, but don't tell me you're not gonna laugh about it somewhere, not because it was a pie, but because it was Mel Torme.

But how does an "attitude bully" affect how opposing baseball players play? A funky, annoying attitude sure -- I accept your Mel Torme example, often felt that way myself toward him when I saw Mel perform -- but a real attitude bully would have be someone like Buddy Rich or, reputedly in certain moods, Benny Goodman or Tommy Dorsey, no? That is, someone who not only has a bad attitude but can also make other people's lives truly miserable from a practical point of view/cost people their jobs, etc. This is Bautista? How so?

Speaking of Rich, do you know the Andy Fusco-Rich story? It's a pretty good one.