AllenLowe

well, Herbie is clearly trying to be funky, find a groove, whatever you wanna call it - and he hasn't a clue. It's all Scarsdale blues.

we clearly hear things differently. That stuff grates on my nerves; to me it's as funky as the Osmonds. If I'm looking for funk I go to the people who can do it - from the Isley's forward. listening to that I felt like I was watching CHIPS. I just find it awful. Jazz's version of Liberace.

I don't think of it in those terms - of "selling out." I just get annoyed when they start making really crappy music; motivations vary, though usually it is some kind of market strategy. Let them make as much money as they want; just don't pretend it's some kind of populist strategy, a return to the people. I gave up on that after the Stalin-Hitler pact.

interesting; when I play in an open way, I usually give the rhythm section a central key but then ask them to follow me - because I always thought Ornette, Dolphy (of course) and even Trane always gave the sense that there was a harmonic sensibility beneath the lines they played. Like Tristano, who had the daring to end phrases on non-diatonic intervals. I love chord changes because they are so challenging, though if you don't do it all the time (and because I have played maybe 7 standards gigs in 16 years) it's hard to do well and without falling back on patterns - though patterns are more a hazard, I think, for scientific players like Liebman. For better or for worse, I'm a 12 tone man. and on occasion, I guess, snarky, depending on which definition you use.

not true - Armstrong is commercial, The Beatles are commercial. James Brown is commercial, Hell, even Beethoven is commercial these days. The Lovin Spoonful was commercial. The Velvets were commercial. Patty Smith is commercial (well, she sucks). Miles was commercial. Mamie Smith was commercial. Bessie Smith was commercial. Basie was commercial. Ibuprofen is commercial. Cheeseburgers are commercial. but I like (almost) all of the above.

not to be snarky, but Larry as usual nails it in the kind of way that usually sends me running from the whole art of the improviser - not because he's wrong but because he's so exactly right about why jazz has shrunken in weird ways from a universal music to one that too often seems codified in increasingly dull ways. So to try and play something that's fresh and interesting and intellectually deep seems more and more difficult. I have hear Herbie play things with Miles that quite specifically address this problem in the best possible way (and in ways, to re-beat that dead horse of Tristano, But don's ask me about this ask Ben Neuman). the whole harmony melody thing is beyond complicated, and few people other than Mingus have, post 1960, attempted to establish what I would call new triadic relationships (well, Monk, too, but in a very different way; also check out Hemphill's one big band recording). I've always thought intervallically - in other words, that any note implies at a minimum 5 harmonic relationships. Good luck explaining this to any bass player where I live, but that's another story. I think Ornette thinks this way exactly (and this is something Jimmy Garrison confirmed) - but ultimately, if this makes any sense, Bud and Bird and Richard Rogers have been here and gone, and done what they could do to the absolute intellectual and emotional limit. As Paul Bley has said, nobody else could do what they did in the way they did it, so why try? and btw, I am not snarky. Accurately satiric, perhaps; because one man's snarkiness is another's parody.

I believe McCusick was in the antiques business- IIRC someone who knew him told me this. and he did society work, musically speaking. Jeff Fuller, a New Haven bass player who worked with him, told me this years ago.

a few stray points - 1) in Evans last years he was a complete coker, and intravenously so. Pete C nails it. 2) great point Larry about Duke Jordan and the way he paced himself. Duke, who was personally one of the angriest people I ever met, was a sea of calm at the piano. also, just an aside, he and Bill Evans used to get together to play duets. and yes, Valerie, my brain is quite virginal. Unencumbered, as they say, by the thought process.

I will not listen to Speak Like A Child unless somebody pulls one of those Clockwork Orange interventions on me - strap me in a chair, tape my eyeballs open, and put on the stereo. Until then I remain a "Child" virgin.

well, here's what I wrote in 1956 - "where is jazz going? One alto player from the Southwest got us here; maybe it will take another Southwestern alto player, this time from, say, Texas, to get us to the next place. It would take ESP to really know."

wow that's good. I sometimes find her mannered, but that's amazing stuff. Must be the dress.

Larry - let's see the rest. I'm with you on all of this (which may lead you to change your mind). back to the future?

"Leaving aside "Speak Like a Child" I might offer these in rebuttal: Wayne Shorter's "Infant Eyes," Robert Schumann's "Kinderszenen, Op. 15" ("Scenes from Childhood"), Debussy's "Children's Corner," Stevie Wonder's "Isn't She Lovely," Monk's "Little Rootie Tootie." I think "Baby Got Back" and "Baby You Can Drive My Car" are coming from a different place. " now you may have got me - except I exempt foreign languages; and MIGHT be willing to accept certain euphemisms. On the other hand, I can't stand Stevie Wonder in any form (I always found him corny and sentimental). Scenes from Childhood is ok as long they are traumatic. "Baby" works ok most of the time. "Girl" sometimes. Debussy already got his comeuppance from Stravinsky, at least according to Robert Craft, so I'll leave him alone. and Weitzen, thanks for the support. Though I do tend to shy away from songs with the words "jesus" or "God" in them.

AH-HA - in that case, I would emphasize, the blandness of the title reflected the blandness of the song (because I would never question Larry's critical judgement unless offered large sums of money) - The title thing is interesting, and it's a good point that sometimes producers name songs (didn't Orrin Keepnews name some Monk things?) though I still maintain that anything, from a book to a song, that contains a title that reflects the innocence of children, will be a bad product. Give me Lord of the Flies any day.

me too; geez Bertrand, I knew some day we would agree on something. my favorite recent title, btw, is "Descent into the Mailroom."

the problem is that it's not really an edit - it changes the whole meaning of his review, I think.

true - however I believe most of the cuts on my CD are in the 3-6 minute range, which is about equal to my attention span -

The Bell Trolls for You.

I have a feeling Pete C and I would agree on may things, and in the past I have annoyed people with some of my criticisms of open jazz improvisation, which I think has painted itself into some of the same corners as bebop and other forms. However, I like Gayle, as I said. I also believe that all jazz musicians should, by statute, keep their performances to no longer than 5 minutes unless the audiences is extremely stoned or very drunk. Remember the Minutemen?

1) this is why I shouldn't go to sleep at night. The next day it's just too hard to catch up on the criticisms. But I will try. 2) would you listen to a song called Penis Variations? Bosoms in the Bayou? My Pinky Hurts? well, you might, but you might not, SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE TITLE. Titles are important, and I WILL NOT LISTEN to Speak Like a Child because it has a bad title, plain and simple - title is part of the composition. That's my opinion. There's also, I think, a similarly dumb Thad Jones title, to a tune I also refuse to listen to. This is my right as an alienated and somewhat brain damaged American. Sorry, it's just the way I am. It's the same reason I can't listen to I Support Genocide by The Aryan Nation, even though their lead guitarist has real chops. on the other hand, I like Mel Gibson - because his films have excellent titles. 3) OF COURSE you can judge a book by the cover. I have had great luck in this respect, and it helps me filter out most academic books (anything with the words Contextualization or Child in them). 4) as for Herbie - well, that's fine, there's good music amongst the crap. It's just that there's too much crap. And anyone who can write what's on the soundtrack to Round Midnight deserves some kind of punishment short of a lethal injection. The truth is, I'm tired of hearing rationalizations for bad music. If it's put out to make money, do not be afraid to admit it. Though sometimes those of us who subsist with our own little projects uncompromised are bewildered when musicians who have so much more success and money and power and who can take the time to do quality work insist on doing crap. But I guess that's their right, as alienated and somewhat brain damaged Americans. 5) I'm sorry Valerie, whom I like very much, is mad at me. But she should probably re-cuse herself due to her personal friendship with Mr and Mrs Herbie. 6) where's Moms when I need her? (please note also that, though I express my opinions with some gusto, I have made no personal attacks against anyone on Organissimo in the previous grafs, nor have I questioned anyone's sanity except my own).

"get all the jazz fans" - and still have room for an agent's heart.

to me, Gayle's got something really special. Just a sound, and a way in that's all his.

I think of some of the above - in Epistrophy's post - as really Musical Collage (I've done a bit of this myself). It' an interesting form and made to order for the digital age.

Speak Like A Child is such a DUMB title that personally I could never listen to it. Might be fine as music, but just imagine if Joyce had called his book "Frank." No one would read it. A true failure, on Herbie's part, of the intellect. and Headhunters, forget it. Tried it, gave up. Went the way of all those CTI's they used to play constantly at that record store I worked at when I was much younger (though it came later, makes no difference). and the music Herbie did for the movie Round Midnite was just excrement, really was. that stuff makes Hot Dog look like a masterpiece. And bring back the varitone!

I just ordered Gene Quill from Fresh Sound. Long Live Gene Quill!