Rosco

No argument here about the musical content of hip hop relative to jazz or even R&B. But it is part of a continuum, demonstrably so (one that is as much social, cultural and political is it is musical). The fact that this chain of 'progression' is towards simplicity, vacuity, tastelessness and vulgarity is nothing more than a reflection of the larger culture. Evolution doesn't necessarily equal improvement.

It had me going up until the third paragraph... Kind of scary that the first two were perfectly plausable, though...

August 19- 1929: Mound City Blue Blowers (Red McKenzie, Eddie Condon, Gene Krupa etc) record for Columbia 1935: Duke Ellingon records for Brunswick 1946: Sarah Vaughan & Teddy Wilson record for Musicraft 1981: (19th- 21st) Carla Bley Big Band- Live! (Watt) 1983: George Adams & Don Pullen- Live at the Village Vanguard (Soul Note) 1983: (19th & 20th) Kenny Burrell at the Village Gate- Ellington a la Carte (Muse) 1993: (19th-21st) Bheki Mseleku (with Joe Henderson, Elvin Jones, Pharoah Sanders, Abbey Lincoln, etc)- Timelessness (Verve) 1993: David Murray- Saxmen (Red Baron)

I’m another one who has grown up listening to (if not always liking) hip hop. I guess that’s the reason I find the whole question (‘the new jazz?’) itself flawed and somehow quaintly old-fashioned. Hip hop as a genre is now some quarter of a century old (and that’s just on records ). We are now as far from the birth of hip hop as jazz rock was from the birth of bebop and as far as bebop was from the recordings of the ODJB. New and revolutionary? Yeah, 25 years ago. Maybe it’s time we were thinking about what’s going to be the new hip hop. African-American music has always responded and adapted to its environment. Ragtime, the blues, swing, bebop, the New Thing, rhythm & blues and funk all reflected the next wave of social and cultural circumstances, primarily (but not exclusively) chronicling the black experience. Hip hop is a part of the continuum of black American music, a lineage that can be traced from Cab Calloway and Slim Gaillard to Gil Scott Heron and the Last Poets to the Wu-Tang Clan and Snoop Dogg. Hip hop was the soundtrack to Reagan-era America, for good or bad. Chuck D once called rap ‘black America’s CNN’, an idea that was less fanciful than some commentators- white and black- would have it. Is hip hop the new jazz? No, no more than it’s the new blues or the new doo-wop. Perhaps the most disappointing thing about hip hop has been its lack of development. The major innovations in the music were made in its first dozen years; Grandmaster Flash, Marley Marl, Public Enemy, De la Soul, Mantronix are names that spring to mind. These were the people who were doing genuinely creative, groundbreaking things. They were the Louises, the Birds and the Tranes of hip hop. Everything since has been following the basic blueprint these people laid out. Once Hammer time rolled around record companies realized rap was a huge market the money took over and creativity was stifled. No surprises there. The mainstream subsumes the avant garde in all art forms and ultimately turns innovation into mere commodity. Most of what is happening now is little advance on those innovators and much of it produced to have instant lowest common denominator appeal with an eye on the cash register. There is creativity and innovation still happening in hip hop, much of it outside of the mainstream. The Roots are a great band, regardless of genre (no surprise that ?uestlove has been working with the likes of Christian McBride and Joshua Redman) while the likes of Madlib, DJ Shadow, DJ Spooky and the Anticon stable have been pushing the envelope the last few years, not to mention the cross-genre experiments of the Thirsty Ear label. But yeah, ultimately a loop is just a loop. The innovation was a long time ago now. For the first time in its history, the popular end of black American music is starting to seem stagnant and stale. I’m still waiting for someone to take it to the next phase. Maybe someone has and I just haven’t heard it. I’m less inclined to seek this stuff out nowadays. Always ready to be enlightened though. A hip hop BFT is a great idea. If you want to make it happen, Noj, I’m in.

There's such a thing as bad tea?

1957 for this one, Brownie

August 18th- 1933: Fletcher Henderson records for Vocalion 1933: Clarence Williams records for Vocalion 1939: Ella Fitgerald records for Decca 1955: Victor Feldman Septet records for Tempo, reissued as part of Departure Dates (Spotlite) 1967: Bill Evans at the Village Vanugard- more recordings for California, Here I Come/ Complete Verve Recordings 1974: Walter Norris- Drifting (Enja) 1993: David Murray- Jazzosaurus Rex (Red Baron)

Ain't that the truth. Picked a bass clari last year and I'm still getting to grips with the thing... The 'bridge' between registers is a bitch!

And that reminds me... There's a scene in the movie 'Scrooged' where Bill Murray walks past some street musicians playing 'We Three Kings'... ... Miles Davis and Larry Carlton!

YES! Never seen the film, but I have a clip on a compilation DVD. Awesome. The movie looks pretty nutty. Is this right?! That I gotta see...

I'd go for this one: Lady Day, the Best of Billie Holiday (Columbia). It's 2 cds all taken from the superb 10 cd box set. Fine remastering and the 2 disc set looks like a good track selection. Good place for a neophyte to start I would say.

August 17th- 1961: Roland Kirk- session for We Three Kings (Mercury) 1969: Alan Silva and the Celestrial Communications Orchestra- Luna Surface (BYG Actuel)

That's exactly how I've felt on more than one occasion. I played a jam a little while ago where someone called 'Friday the 13th' which should be the easiest thing in the world (it looks ridiculously simple on paper) but nothing I did seemed to be working. That was an elevator shaft moment and I was about 20 storeys up. These are tunes that have their own 'logic' that has nothing to do with how harmony 'should' work. Forget everythiing you think you know, 'cos it ain't gonna help! It's been a while since I tried playing it but 'Bye-Ya' was another one where I just couldn't make anything work.

I love a lot of Gato's earlier things... The ESP is great, Fenix, El Pampero (Flying Dutchman), Latino America, Viva Emiliano Zapata (Impulse), his contributions to Don Cherry's Complete Communion (Blue Note) and Carla Bley's often bewildering Escalator Over the Hill (JCOA). Gato's sound comes blazing out at you, but there was a warmth and melodicism to even his 'out' playing. And then it all went downhill into mushy fuzak. I blame Alpert. But the early stuff, man... Fire in the soul.

Favourites to play... Ruby My Dear, Well You Needn't, In Walked Bud, Monk's Mood, Bemsha Swing, Epistrophy, I Mean You, Straight No Chaser, Rhythm-a-Ning, Evidence and Round Midnight (well, you have to take that one on eventually, right?) Oh, and does Blue Monk count? Interesting to hear a piano player's perspective on it. I think a lot of horn players have problems dealing with Monk because his compositions (which are inseperable from his playing) are so pianistic. Monk seems to deal with the physicalities of the instrument more than just about anyone (except Cecil Taylor and his followers). There's been more than one occasion where a problem understanding Monk's use of harmony has been solved once played at a keyboard. Traditional harmonic movement goes largely out the window and yet his progressions have a resolute musical logic and masterful use of tension and release that you really have to tap into. Anyone hoping to play licks or run chord/ scales is going to come unstuck pretty quickly. Monk forces you to think instead of playing on auto-pilot.

Let's just say my respect for Charlie Rouse grows daily...

Awww!!! Stop teasing us you guys!!! I am sooooo looking forward to this... But I ain't diggin' the artwork, baby

That's amazing! You were only on hold for ten minutes?

Couple more for August 16th- 1937: Lionel Hampton records for Victor 1962: Sam Jones- (with Blue Mitchell, Clark Terry, Snooky Young, Jimmy Cleveland, Frank Strozier, Jimmy Heath, Pat Patrick, Joe Zawinul, Wynton Kelly, Ron Carter & Ben Riley) session for Down Home (Riverside) 1986: Sonny Rollins in Saugerties- G-Man (Milestone), tracks also included in the Saxophone Colussus doscumentary Now... Somewhere along the line, I've picked up August 16, 1957 as the date for Charles Mingus- East Coasting (Bethlehem). The CD I have gives the session only as 'August 1957', as does Brian Priestley's discography in Mingus: A Critical Biography This site gives the date as August 6th, which seems unlikely given that that is the date for one of the sessions for Tijuana Moods. Any info?

So.... Coffee made with boiling water. Who'd have thunk?

You think? Obviously never dined at this place...

I took so long to post I see Mr. Fitzgerald got there before me!

← Well, that clears up a little mystery. There's an airshot from the Spotlite, Washington dated (probably) November 1, 1958. Most discographies I've seen have Red Garland as pianist (and it certainly seems to be Garland); however Ken Vail's Miles' Diary book credits Evans with playing the whole engagement (October 29th- November 2nd). It also states that Evans quit the band in mid-November after a further engagement at the Village Vanguard. As the letter indicates, Evans had qiut as early as mid-October. Anyway, nothing to suggest antipathy between the two men (quite the opposite it seems), so that ugly rumour can be laid to rest.

Date for the session is given as April- May 1994. Aparrently, the piece isn't exactly as McLean wrote it. Also from the notes: Pianist Larry Willis and drummer (Steve) Berrios molded the original composition to fit the unique style of the Fort Apache band, making it a hybrid of the rhythmic styles of yambu, songo and modern bebop. "At first, we went into the studio with it and it didn't work," Berrios recalls. "It's one thing to hear the effect in your mind and another to hear it on tape- we realized we had to add two bars." The performance is a testament to the band's creative resourcefulness. The opening head has an odd 13-17-13-16 structure; during the solos each section is 'normalised' to 16 bars. But yes, a good piece and well performed (the whole album's a good 'un). Pity there's no light shed on exactly how that homage came about.

Actually, re: the Bill Evans letter... I vaguely remember hearing somewhere that Trane wasn't too fond of Evans (I'm trying to remember where I read that). This rumour has been refuted elsewhere, but maybe the letter would help shed some light...