sgcim

Huge fave of mine. One of the most soulful singers that ever lived, IMHO. I used to play "Sackful of Dreams" and "I Love You More Than You'll Ever Know ' from the great "Live" LP for the hip-hop kids in my HS music classes, and they'd just say "Old School", and beg me to put on some Fifty Cent (a former student at my school, before they booted him out).

Thanks for the info, Mr. Ascending.

Wow, that was the last big record store left in NYC. Bloomberg let commercial rents go through the roof, and all we have left is a bland, yuppified NYC. I used to love browsing at all the great record stores they had: Dayton's Colony Records Tower J&R Rockit Science Kim's Now they're all gone. NYC, the cultual capitol of the US, right...

I was in my fave used record store the other day, and they had Phil Miller's "Cuts Both Ways" with the omni-present Dave Stewart on keyboards. They wanted a lot of bread for it. Is it a good record?

Yeah, but I don't think they copied enough notes for Horace to get a big payday from those two funky white boys. Keith really took them to the cleaners.

Well, at least WM got to split the 15K that Becker and Fagen allowed him and PC, out of the 50K budget that Warner Bros. allowed them. That's $7,500, probably the most money WM had ever seen at one time. While I think that Becker and Fagen have written some of the best pop tunes of the last 40 years, their pop perfectionist attitude towards a jazz record made what could have been a great record somewhat less than that. I haven't listened to it in ages after being initially disappointed in it. While we're on the topic of the SD boys and jazz, it may be edifying to some people here that they ripped off Keith Jarrett's intro to "As Long As You're Getting Yours" (OSLT?) for their pop masterpiece "Gaucho". Keith wouldn't let them get way with it, and now his name is included on the songwriting credits.

It's a pretty fascinating story that illustrates William Gaddis' theory of "Capitalism and the Arts- the destructive element". From the book, "An Unsung Cat": Marsh and Christlieb were disappointed with the way the LP turned out. They wanted just two tenors and bass and drums like in their private sessions. together. Becker and Fagen however added Lou Levy on piano, and used arr. by Joe Roccisano. WM and PC maintained that WB and DF not only chose the wrong takes, but destroyed the true sound of the band through their engineering techniques. WM said that WB and DF, "spoiled the master in such a way that you really lose the presence of the band. We have a master that's just spectacular. So we feel that that they just castrated the music. They didn't quite know what to do with us. Originally they wanted just me alone, but I wanted Pete because Pete can really play. There was no trouble with the band, but the producers had something else in mind." In 5 days, the group recorded a total of 33 takes of ten different tunes. Becker and Fagen rejected a half dozen tunes entirely, and even on tunes they accepted, PC said they chose takes that the band didn't like. "Everything we worked for was in jeopardy. They didn't want what we wanted." The group was particularly dismayed that WB and DF rejected a "Body and Soul" that the group loved. "They looked at it with such disdain, that it wore a hole in our soul. That one tune in place of their tune "Rapunzel" would have made an entirely different LP today." PC appealed to Warner Bros. executives in an attempt to rein WB and DF in, but was told that his problem was with the producers, not them (WB). Becker and Fagen made it clear that the LP would be done their way, or it would be Shitcanned(!). After Marsh returned to NY, Christlieb and the rhythm section were called back in to the studio to record five more tunes, but only one, "I'm Old Fashioned" was used. If Marsh was called for this final session- PC said he wasn't- he declined." As a previous poster said, 1991's "Conversations With Warne" on Criss Cross is the same band without the piano that consisted of material recorded before the 1978 "Apogee" sessions.

I was surprised to read in the Warne Marsh bio, "An Unsung Cat" that this was a pretty negative experience for Warne, because of the poor production choices of Becker and Fagen of Steely Dan, the record's producers. It must have been pretty hard to fuck up a session with two of the best tenor players around, but somehow Becker and Fagen managed to really make idiots out of themselves, according to the bio.

That sums it up pretty well. If you look at the the two projects he's been involved in; JALC and the Ken Burns doc, it's not that much of a stretch...

That's alright brother, when our two Evans-hating moderators wake up on Judgement Day, and are greeted by a tall, skinny, bespectacled pianist, they'll realize the error of their ways. They'll be told to board the Down Elevator, where waiting for them will be Crouch's lips, willing to service them for all eternity... :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

I don't think there's any doubt about that. Here's a quote from an article about it I found online: "Just how did Ken Burns treat the enormous importance of Bill Evans to jazz history in his 19-hour presentation? In less than about 90 seconds, and only within the context of a section from Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue", the best selling jazz album of all time. The narration mentions Evans only inside a black-and-white narrative framework of Miles being colorblind when it came to the music. As "All Blues" played in the background, veteran critic Nat Hentoff, who was a friend of Miles, commented on how Evans' employment in the band came at a time when blacks were wary as to whether a white guy "could even play the music", and also of West-Coast jazz (played mostly by whites). Burns' film at least had the decency to add that Miles liked Evans' quiet fire" and "cascading waterfalls" piano sound, but after this brief mention of Evans on perhaps jazz' greatest album, the pianist is gone for good."

That's anecdotal evidence, has he made it his position in print or in recorded interviews? See Commentary Magazine, Jan. 1998. "Does Bill Evans Swing" by Terry Teachout.

I don't know why anyone would want to read anything an ignoramus such as Crouch would have to say about jazz, Here's something I found that he had to say about Bill Evans: "As far as Bill Evans is concerned, readers should note that Stanley Crouch, Marsalis' admitted mentor, is responsible for serious negative attacks on the pianist, as noted by jazz writer Eric Nisenson: "I once overheard [the jazz critic] Stanley Crouch giving a diatribe against Evans. It was just before a kind of symposium of jazz critics.... Evans, according to Crouch, was a 'punk' whose playing could scarcely be considered jazz. He could not swing, according to Crouch, and there was no blues in his playing." (11) These are simply inaccurate and dirisive remarks, especially since musicians as diverse as Miles Davis, Ahmad Jamal, Oscar Peterson, Cannonball Adderley and scores of others clearly disagreed. That Evans considered the blues a limited harmonic structure for his own purposes, and only rarely used it as a vehicle for blowing, is a given. That the often blues-based solos of Monk, Bud Powell, Horace Silver and others were, as he himself noted, a big factor in Evans' own pianistic development is also a given. That all of this ought to somehow diminish his brilliant artistry and widespread influence is just plain silly and inexcusable. For proof, just open any decent jazz history book."

That's that gunslinger mentality that was essential to survival back in the day but that can get you killed nowadays. I have mixed emotions about the change, to put it mildly. Let me put it this way - if the guy didn't fight back in some manner (preferably by playing better) then he deserved the disrespect he got, and should have learned from it for the next time. Stitt would not have pulled that shit if he really respected they guy (and no matter how good the guy was, was he REALLY up to the job of sitting in with Sonny Stitt? Was Sonny Stitt his idea of a Benevolent Negro Grandfather who was there to share the love and the bandstand and make everybody feel good that Jazz Will Survive, All God's Children Got Rhythm And Can Play Changes!!! ? There's a rather...serious degree of Disrespectful Cluelessness inherent in the notion of sitting in with Sonny Stitt unless you're ready to BRING IT, ya' know?)) and/or if he knew that he couldn't have gotten by with it. Wrong place/wrong time, blood would have been spilled (or at least drawn), and perhaps rightfully so (depending on time/place). But times have changed, and we make room for everybody these days, because we are such nice and evolved people and everybody's beautiful in their own way. So MANY people play the music now, and it has thrived and improved as a result! Or something. Sonny Stitt is dead now. I guess you've got a point there. Where would music be today if that drummer (Jo jones?) hadn't flung that cymbal at Bird when he tried to sit in at a session and didn't have his shit together? That made Bird woodshed like a maniac, and look what he came up with... Max Roach tried to pull something similar with Ornette at the Five Spot, but I don't think it took... Roland Kirk got his ass kicked by Stitt, and then RRK went on to kick ass whenever he could- ask Dave Liebman, George Adams, and many others about it.

You ain't kidding when you say a 'range of opinions'. I have to admit that I was turned off to Stitt after working with a Stitt disciple, alto player for many years, who was very competent, but boring as hell. He told a story about Stitt humiliating some fat, white tenor player who tried to sit in with him by pulling on the fat folds of flesh on his throat (like a turkey) while the guy was playing! I had also heard a bunch of Stitt recordings (and caught him live at the first Newport in NY shows) that didn't particularly impress me, but after recently hearing the Dizzy/Rollins/Stitt LP, I realized that when Stitt was 'on', it was something really special. IMHO, the "Rearin' Back" LP with Ronnie Matthews was one of those 'on' albums, and the Ellington LP was not.

I found this in the new releases section of a library, so I don't know if this is the first time this was available on CD, but it features two Stitt LPs- Rearin' Back(1962) w/ Ronnie Matthews, Lex Humpries and Arthur Harper, and an earlier all Ellington set (1959)w/ Stan Levy and Lou Levy. I forgot who played bass. "Rearin' Back" is Stitt at his best, with equally good Matthews. Those of you ready to dismiss SS as just a Bird imitator should be happy with today's jazz scene- nobody sounds like Bird anymore... The Ellington set is pretty sad in comparison. Stitt plays tenor on all except three cuts, and doesn't get anywhere near where he was at on Rearin' Back.

I liked his work with Grant Green- RIP.

I met Toots when he was playing guitar and harmonica in an All-Star big band at a jazz festival they used to have on Lon Guyland in the 70s. I was playing in a kid band before them, and he and Ron Carter didn't have amplifiers for the rehearsal, so they both used my friend's Kustom 100, that I was borrowing. They didn't even ask me, they just told me they were using it. Toots saw that I was totally in awe of him and Ron, so he ordered me to move the amp where he wanted it. He said to me:'"Slave, you will move the amp over here!" I, of course, complied. A student arranger from Eastman wrote a chart for them, and Ron Carter made him rewrite the bass part right before the concert, because he said it was too sloppy. The poor guy was completely freaking out while Ron sat back and relaxed. Toots got standing ovations from the audience on his harmonica features. We used to have thousands in attendance at these summer jazz festivals, because it was free, and it was held at the huge Eisenhower Park, which goes on for miles. People loved it, but when the head of the Office of Arts and Cultural Development(who loved jazz) was politically ousted, they never held another jazz festival.

Are there enough good Eddie Costa piano solos on that to make it worth getting?

I always get confused about that. We used to see Mike playing way back in the 1980s at a place called 55 Grand Street, and the people I was with said that he lived above it, and owned the place. Apparently 55 Bar is not the same as 55 Grand St., right?

Anyone hear anything about this? https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203077512836820&set=a.1384481210160.2055314.1175899651&type=1&theater

I was just talking about him with a trumpet player friend of mine who went to high school with VR, and he said that VR was the most swinging drummer he ever played with. He was playing pro level when he was in high school. Unfortunately, VR adopted some bad 'habits', and that's what might have ultimately did him in. My friend, who played with Lionel Hampton, wasn't even aware that VG recorded, although he knew about the Mangione connection. He still has never used a fuckin' computer, so I'll have to tell him about the recordings mentioned.

Another Kerouac 'naming' from The Subterraneans was the character Harold Sands, who represented the novelist William Gaddis, who hung in The Village with Kerouac in the 50s, and who had just had the manuscript of "The Recognitions" accepted by a publisher. You can still hear the influence of Kerouac's take on jazz in the lyrics of Donald Fagen, a big Beat fanatic.

This thread is not going as I wanted it to go. I wanted secret cabals of LSD using jazzers to be exposed; maybe even Ornette's secret acid dealer to come forward and make startling revelations . I guess it's back to the free jazz movement of the 60s being spearheaded by aliens theory...

Before the Internest, I usually kept my little crackpot theories to myself, and the world was probably a better place for it.. . But now we are all subject to whatever stupid thoughts run through everyone else's mind, and that can't be a good thing... Anyway, I was talking to a sax player I know a while ago, and I told him I didn't like Trane's "OM' LP. He said they all took acid before they recorded it, and when Trane listened to it, he didn't like it, and didn't want them to release it, but they released it anyway. Then I heard Larry Young's jam with Jimi Hendrix, and I thought,"Hmm...that's definitely not typical LY,.." So I did a little research (IOW, I did a google search), and I found out that LY was trippin' himself around then... Then I was listening to a Roland Kirk CD, and noticed he started doing some odd music in the mid to late 60s, like "Jammin' With Wolves", and other things like that, and then I read his bio, and sure enow, Rahsaan be trippin' his brain out , too. i don't think I need to point out the pattern that seemed to be emerging, so what say you? Can the term 'acid jazz' be used another way?