The Magnificent Goldberg

Those are interesting albums from Les but I find it difficult to place them as influential. There are, of course, big gaps in my knowledge of jazz and it may be that they had impacts outside soul jazz. I'd be most obliged if you'd say a few things about those two albums. both on atlantic, 'invitation' was released in '72 and 'layers' in '73. these two records almost singlehandedly placed the fender and other synth(s) squarely in the center of the presentation and carved some incredible soundscapes. a source as relatively clueless and mainstream as amg says this about 'layers'; This groundbreaking jazz synthesizer record is really unlike any other Les McCann ever made. Aside from a three-man percussion section and electric bassist Jimmy Rowser, Layers is entirely electronic, one of the first jazz albums with such an emphasis. and this about 'invitation'; Label M has reissued the classic 1972 Les McCann album Invitation to Openness on CD with the majority of the tunes receiving the benefit of advanced technology. On this recording, the 26-minute "The Lovers" is more illustrative, freer in its essence and translation of the predominant free love theme of the '60s and '70s. Every nuance of McCann's stream of consciousness comes through loud and clear, as do the excellent solos by Yusef Lateef on a wide array of reeds, flutes, and percussion. these two lp's don't adhere to your standard walk-the-bar/jukebox school of r&b cum jazz sessions, but by all means their infulence was far and wide and deserve a place in the collection of any open minded listener interested in an intelligent groove. whether they make any list is kind of irrelevent. if you don't know or haven't heard them, check them out. I agree - but I fail to find soul jazz albums focusing on electronics, apart from 'Black Byrd' and its follow ups, and Black Byrd was first. Completely different groove, I'll agree, but that's where it was at in soul jazz and where it stayed for quite some time, through the work of the Blackbyrds and other similar bands. But I guess what you're saying is that Les' two albums had an impact in the kinds of jazz I don't listen to much. I accept that may well be true, but... We're not talking 'bout them MG

Yes, that's a nice album. Much though I love Junior, I find it difficult to say that he was a wide influence. Now, if Dan comes in, saying "there's no Three Sounds albums in there, what you playing at?" I claim ignorance because I don't know nearly as much as I should about them or Gene Harris himself. But I've got most of Junior's albums, including all of the ones before '77 except 2 of his Capitol jobs, and can't, therefore, claim ignorance. I'm always reminded of what Chuck Nessa says about him - Junior Mance is a very nice man and a very good piano player - or words to that effect. But give it a go, Soulpope - tell us why you think that's an important moment in soul jazz history. MG Important in Soul Jazz History - not sure whether I can cope with that ranking...but Junior Mance to me was as soulfull as it gets and based on the strength of his contributions a number of recordings, probably not even intentionally, just turned that way......an example ? Here we go : Of course Martin Rivera and Oliver Jackson also didn`t hamper the soulfull groove.... Dex at Montreux is one of my favourite albums - and surely my favourite Dex. But as for it being an important soul jazz album, well, soul jazz had stopped developing by 1985, when it eventually issued, and was running the mixtures as before, under the guise of Acid Jazz. The album that was important for THAT was Don Wilkerson's 'Preach brother'; Don was regarded as God by the British DJs of the early eighties, after the LP was reissued by Pathe Marconi. MG

In that other thread, I said that Bob Porter described it as jazz intended as entertainment for black adults. It's really hard to define, especially as people like Milt Jackson and Sonny Stitt made bebop and hard bop and soul jazz records. But if you think about entertainment, dancing (including very slow dancing, perhaps horizontally), partying and the music that goes with that, and the music that could and would be affected by that, and could be and was affected by (and led) changes in popular black music, hey, you're getting there. MG

I thought a lot about putting 'Understanding' in. It's not supposed to be a list of incredible albums, though. I decided that the impact of Harold Alexander playing with an organ band wasn't really any more serious than Harold playing with Pucho & the LSB a few years before (which I also didn't put in). Shirley got in with the Cookbooks and 'Hip soul', which was the first album she made with Stanley - less than a week before 'Dearly beloved' which also had no bass player. Remember, to be influential and important, a lot of people have got to hear something quite a bit or it won't spread and I don't think that was true for anything on Strata East (or Black Jazz, for that matter). But the impact of Stanley and Shirley was one hell of an impact. I put the Crusaders first album, 'Freedom sound', in there. How can you decide that the twenty-first ('Crusaders 1') or twenty-second had more impact than the first album in a huge body of work? The first one stated clearly the principles which the band continued to follow. There were certainly better albums from them; 'Lighthouse '66' does it for me. But I'm not looking for good, great or even awesome. MG Yeah, the first two are important to me personally, but I get your point about broader impact. The Crusaders thing, (and I did get the album wrong, though, it was Crusaders 1, not 2nd Crusade. My bad on that one) I think in terms of market (as well as musical) impact, Crusaders 1 was/is more than a simple continuation of their previous sound. It was a commercially sucessful reimaging of it, and you probably didn't get those really big hits to come if this one didn't work like it did. if I'm rembering my chronology, that's the first album that really broke through commercially with their new "Crusaders" sound featuring grittier funk grooves and dominant electric guitar as a part of the group's sound (geez, Arthur Adams, Larry Carlton & David T, Walker all on the same record!). "Put It Where You Want It" got plenty of airplay in this area, and I think, nationwide. The Chisa ablums gave us the last Jazz Crusaders album as well as the first Crusaders album, and they were certainly "transitional". But neither of them had the new Crusaders sound with the guitars all up in there.like Crusaders 1 did, and that was the sound that got them up on top in the 70s. And Blue Thumb either was or soon got up in with ABC, so you had the successful marketing to go with an attractive new (or if you prefer, "updated") sound. Doing research simultaneous with remembering reinforces my perception - Check the charts, this one cracked the Pop Top 100 and made it to #29 on the R&B charts. There was no turning back! http://www.allmusic.com/album/1-mw0000337111/awards Read all about it - in Billboard! http://books.google.com/books?id=MAkEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=crusaders+%22put+it+where+you+want+it%22+single+billboard&source=bl&ots=g6yqI6LGpZ&sig=VTIbFExFveLDPHspCi9wpz2dlBU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ev4JVPKiMMmxyATh6oHoCA&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=crusaders%20%22put%20it%20where%20you%20want%20it%22%20single%20billboard&f=false Your honor, allowing for a misremembering of album title, the defense rests. OK, you win that one Jim. Yeah, there WAS a change. Where it happened, I think, MAY have been 'Old socks, new shoes', which was a bigger hit than 'Crusaders 1' (particularly on the R&B charts), but followed up by the really great 'Pass the plate', which bombed from a hit point of view - still, you CAN'T expect to have a dance hit album when side 1 is all one track. So, "Old socks' was a false start. I'll add 'Crusaders #1' to the list. What I wonder - and I haven't got the album, so I don't know what it was like - is where 'Hollywood' fits in. I haven't got a proper date for it, either but it was on Mowest, one of Motown's labels. Was it recorded before the Chisas? I guess it might have been because Chisa was absorbed by Blue Thumb, which was absorbed by ABC. But I dunno. Got any ideas about this one, JIm? MG

Yeah, so do most people Personally, I find Fuller's sound completely characterless - no vibrato, no colour, just like J J Johnson's, in fact. Let me have trombonists about me that are fat with big brash sounds full of personal quirks like Bennie Green, Kid Ory, J C Higginbotham, Fred Wesley, Lawrence Brown, Wayne Henderson, Harold Betters and the uncredited man who did a solo on the original version of 'Don't answer the door' by Jimmy Johnson. I don't like those smooth guys who tone down their sounds so they can play fast. MG

It was. It was included in this one which his a twofer of 'Chocomotive' and its follow-up, 'Trust in me'. But one cut from 'Chocomotive' - 'Girl talk' was cut to fit the two LPs onto one CD. In my view, Fantasy would have done better to have linked 'Trust in me' with its follow up, 'Blue oddysey', which would have fitted, and put 'Chocomotive' out as an OJC. But there we are. Of those three albums, personally I rate 'Blue oddysey' the highest, even though it has Curtis Fuller on it - because it also has Pepper Adams in there. MG

Yes, that's a nice album. Much though I love Junior, I find it difficult to say that he was a wide influence. Now, if Dan comes in, saying "there's no Three Sounds albums in there, what you playing at?" I claim ignorance because I don't know nearly as much as I should about them or Gene Harris himself. But I've got most of Junior's albums, including all of the ones before '77 except 2 of his Capitol jobs, and can't, therefore, claim ignorance. I'm always reminded of what Chuck Nessa says about him - Junior Mance is a very nice man and a very good piano player - or words to that effect. But give it a go, Soulpope - tell us why you think that's an important moment in soul jazz history. MG

Not sure about this. Which came first, the nickname or the tune title? Here's what someone's said about it. Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/eddie-davis#ixzz3CSsMfWHU So it could be one thing, or another. 'Lockjaw' was recorded for the Haven label in 1946. I've never heard any of his material from that era (shock horror!) but as far as I know, no one's claimed this was an important record. MG

'Bar wars' is undoubtedly the best album Gator made - even 'Star bag' isn't as good. But there's very much a sense in which it was the Gator mixture as before, but done to a turn. As far as Baby Face is concerned, I had to restrain myself from putting them all in. 'Stop & listen' does show links back to his 1955 Vee-Jay single, which indicates his complete originality as a modern organist. But who knew in 1961? Well, apart from Baby Face himself. And 'Mo' rock' is just a blinder of an album, which expresses Baby Face's style rather better than the Blue Notes. So does '8 ball', but I put that in because it was the end of that little story. MG

Those are interesting albums from Les but I find it difficult to place them as influential. There are, of course, big gaps in my knowledge of jazz and it may be that they had impacts outside soul jazz. I'd be most obliged if you'd say a few things about those two albums.

I thought a lot about putting 'Understanding' in. It's not supposed to be a list of incredible albums, though. I decided that the impact of Harold Alexander playing with an organ band wasn't really any more serious than Harold playing with Pucho & the LSB a few years before (which I also didn't put in). Shirley got in with the Cookbooks and 'Hip soul', which was the first album she made with Stanley - less than a week before 'Dearly beloved' which also had no bass player. Remember, to be influential and important, a lot of people have got to hear something quite a bit or it won't spread and I don't think that was true for anything on Strata East (or Black Jazz, for that matter). But the impact of Stanley and Shirley was one hell of an impact. I put the Crusaders first album, 'Freedom sound', in there. How can you decide that the twenty-first ('Crusaders 1') or twenty-second had more impact than the first album in a huge body of work? The first one stated clearly the principles which the band continued to follow. There were certainly better albums from them; 'Lighthouse '66' does it for me. But I'm not looking for good, great or even awesome. MG

A comment I made on the thread about underrated Blue Note or Prestige albums led me to wonder whether the important Soul Jazz recordings were all that well known. So I thought I’d list them. This isn’t a list of recordings I think are best, or that I like best, though many of them would appear in such a list. It’s what I think are milestones in the development of the music (and milestones in its decline in later years) which made a difference. Many of them were very popular; in a sense, a recording or a song has to be heard widely to be influential. But it’s not a list of hits; the popularity of a recording doesn’t guarantee influence. I’ve excluded vocal recordings (except if there’s one on an otherwise instrumental album), so no Dinah Washington, Nancy Wilson, Gloria Lynne, Etta Jones, Della Reese etc. So, here's the list. I haven't tried to limit it in any way - so there are 20 78s and 105 (I think) albums (in approximate chronological order). The forties/early fifties 78s Illinois Jacquet – Blues pt 2 (from JATP) – Disc (1944) Ike Quebec – Blue Harlem – Blue Note (1944) Illinois Jacquet – Flying home – Aladdin (1945) Illinois Jacquet – You left me all alone – Aladdin (1947) Illinois Jacquet – Robbins nest – Apollo (1947) Arnett Cobb – When I grow too old to dream pts 1&2 – Apollo (1947) Joe Morris – Lowe groovin’ – Atlantic (1947) Gene Ammons – Red top – Mercury (1947) Sonny Thompson – Long gone pts 1&2 – Miracle (1947) Todd Rhodes – Blues for the Red Boy – Sensation (1947) Eddie Chamblee – Back street – Miracle (1948) Paul Williams – The hucklebuck - Savoy (1948) Frank Culley – Cole slaw – Atlantic (1949) Cootie Williams (w Willis Jackson) – Gator tail pts 1&2 – Mercury (1949) Gene Ammons – My foolish heart – Chess (1950) Gene Ammons/Sonny Stitt – Blues up & down – Prestige (1951) Wild Bill Davis – Azure-te – Okeh (1951) Jimmy Forrest – Night train – United (1951) Rusty Bryant – All night long – Dot (1952) Wild Bill Davis – April in Paris – Okeh (1953) LPs Eddie ‘Lockjaw’ Davis – Goodies from Davis – Roost (1952-3) Eddie ‘Lockjaw’ Davis/Sonny Stitt – Battle of Birdland – Roost (1954) Late fifties Eddie ‘Lockjaw’ Davis – Modern Jazz – King (1955) Gene Ammons – Woofin’ & tweetin’ – Prestige (1955) Bill Doggett – Everybody dance the honky tonk – King (1954-6) Ray Charles – The great Ray Charles – Atlantic (1956) Kenny Burrell – All day long (side 1) – Prestige (1957) Jimmy Smith – All day long – Blue Note (1957) Lou Donaldson – Swing & soul – Blue Note (1957) Jimmy Smith – House party – Blue Note (1957-8) Jimmy Smith – The sermon – Blue Note (1957-8) Ray Charles & Milt Jackson – Soul brothers – Atlantic (1957) Eddie ‘Lockjaw ‘ Davis & Shirley Shirley Scott – Cookbook vols 1-3 – Prestige (1959) Lou Donaldson – Blues walk – Blue Note (1959) Cannonball Adderley & Milt Jackson – Things are getting better – Riverside (1959) Ray Charles & David Newman – Fathead – Atlantic (1959) Arnett Cobb – Blow Arnett Blow – Prestige (1959) Arnett Cobb – Smooth sailing – Prestige (1959) Ray Bryant – Madison time – Columbia (US) (1959) Willis Jackson – Please Mr Jackson – Prestige (1959) Teddy Edwards & Les McCann – It’s about time – Pacific Jazz (1959) Johnny ‘Hammond’ Smith – All soul – New Jazz (1959) Wes Montgomery – Trio – Riverside (1959) Cannonball Adderley – In San Francisco – Riverside (1959) Milt Buckner – Mighty high – Argo (1959) Sixties Les McCann – The truth – Pacific Jazz (1959-60) Nat Adderley – Work song – Riverside (1960) Cannonball Adderley – Them dirty blues – Riverside (1960) Jimmy Smith – Back at the Chicken Shack – Blue Note (1960) Johnny Griffin & the big soul band – Riverside (1960) Gene Ammons – Boss tenor – Prestige (1960) John Wright – South side soul – Prestige (1960) Curtis Amy & Paul Bryant – Blues message – Pacific Jazz (1960) Ray Charles – Genius+soul=jazz – Impulse (1960) Stanley Turrentine & 3 Sounds - Blue hour - Blue Note (1960) Baby Face Willette – Face to face – Blue Note (1961) Jack McDuff – The honeydripper – Prestige (1961) Groove Holmes/Mccann/Webster – Groove – Pacific Jazz (1961) Jazz Crusaders – Freedom sound – Pacific Jazz (1961) Shirley Scott & Stan Turrentine – Hip soul – Prestige (1961) Gene Ammons/Stitt/McDuff – Soul summit – Prestige (1961) Gene Ammons/Holmes – Groovin’ with Jug – Pacific Jazz (1961) Gerald Wilson – You better believe it – Pacific Jazz (1961) Jimmy Forrest – Sit down & relax – Prestige (1961) Ike Quebec – Heavy soul – Blue Note (1961) Les McCann – In New York – Pacific Jazz (1961) Jimmy McGriff – I got a woman – Sue (1962) Willis Jackson – Thunderbird – Prestige (1962) Jimmy Smith – Bashin’ – Verve (1962) Teddy Edwards – Heart & soul – Contemporary (1962) Lou Donaldson – The natural soul – Blue Note (1962) Don Wilkerson – Preach brother – Blue Note (1962) Gene Ammons – Bad bossa nova – Prestige (1962) Jack McDuff – Screamin’ – Prestige (1962) Paul Bryant – Something’s happenin’ – Fantasy (1963) Kenny Burrell – Midnight blue – Blue Note (1963) John Patton – Along came John – Blue Note (1963) Willis Jackson – Grease & Gravy – Prestige (1963) Jack McDuff – Live – Prestige (1963) Red Holloway – The burner – Prestige (1963) Charles Kynard – Where it’s at – Pacific Jazz (1963) Hank Crawford – True blue – Atlantic (1963-4) Billy Larkin & the Delegates – Pigmy – Aura (1964) Freddie Roach – Brown sugar – Blue Note (1964) James Brown – Grits & soul – Smash (1964) Don Patterson – Hip cake walk – Prestige (1964) John Patton – The way I feel – Blue Note (1964) Freddie Roach – All that’s good – Blue Note (1964) Baby Face Willette – Behind the 8 ball – Argo (1964) Freddie McCoy – Lonely avenue – Prestige (1965) Ramsey Lewis – The in crowd – Argo (1965) Johnny ‘Hammond’ Smith – The stinger – Prestige (1965) Blue Mitchell – Down with it – Blue Note (1965) Eddie Harris – The in sound – Atlantic (1965) Nat Adderley – Sayin’ somethin’ – Atlantic (1965-6) Groove Holmes – Livin’ soul – Prestige (1966) Donald Byrd – Mustang – Blue Note (1966) Freddie McCoy – Funk drops – Prestige (1966) Cannonball Adderley – Mercy, mercy, mercy – Capitol (1966) Stanley Turrentine – Rough & tumble – Blue Note (1966) Cannonball Adderley – Why am I treated so bad – Capitol (1967) Lou Donaldson – Alligator bogaloo – Blue Note (1967) Wes Montgomery – A day in the life – A&M (1967) Stanley Turrentine – The look of love – Blue Note (1968) Lonnie Smith – Think – Blue Note (1968) Herbie Mann – Memphis underground – Atlantic (1968) Les McCann & Eddie Harris – Swiss movement – Atlantic (1969) Houston Person – Goodness – Prestige (1969) Grant Green – Carryin’ on – Blue Note (1969) Gene Ammons – The boss is back – Prestige (1969) Gene Ammons – Brother Jug – Prestige (1969) Charles Earland – Black talk – Prestige (1969) Seventies James Brown – Ain’t it funky – King (1970) Rusty Bryant – Soul liberation - Prestige (1970) Charles Earland – Livin’ black – Prestige (1970) Stanley Turrentine – Sugar - CTI (1970) Leon Spencer – Sneak preview - Prestige (1970) Jazz Crusaders - Crusaders #1 - Blue Thumb (1971) Johnny ‘Hammond’ Smith – Breakout – Kudu (1971) Grover Washington Jr – Inner city blues - Kudu (1971) Donald Byrd – Black Byrd – Blue Note (1972) Lou Donaldson – Sophisticated Lou – Blue Note (1972) Charles Earland – Leaving this planet – Prestige (1973)

I must do something about getting some of that group's material... MG

That it was Worrell surprised me. His jazz credentials don't. He's been on Pharoah Sanders albums as well as Clinton ones. And don't forget, Clinton's bands included Maceo Parker, Fred Wesley and Pee Wee Ellis, plus one or two other ex-James Brown guys. There are a whole bunch of R&B bands staffed by jazzmen from the mid forties to the eighties at least. I know you have some of the early R&B bands. Don't stop at 1954! MG

Coltrane died in 67. And those were all (except one) Impulse! albums by Trane, his widow, and his right-hand front-line man. Impulse was well-positioned to sell their records. And again, impulse! after Theiel left was a different label. impulse! agressively marketed their new music roster, but also brought in some Californian tihngs too, a very interesting subset of the LA scene of the time. However, Alice & Pharao were both moving into a more overertly" "spiritual" music, which was not at all the type of "avant-garde" of, say, Marzette Watts, or even Cecil Taylor. Love Will Find A Way was on Arista, produced by Norman Connors iirc, and was pretty much a pop album. I love it, actually, it's got the great single "As You Are", but it's not relevant to the discussion here at all. Thanks Jim. Yes, I noticed Trane died in '67 And that those were all Trane-related albums. The point I was trying to make was that those albums couldn't have been hits without what one might call an infrastructure of other music being widely heard to enable a decent section of the pop market being able to relate to the stuff. Getting onto the pop chart isn't a matter of quality so much as hooks; you can't get the hooks though, unless you are just a little bit familiar with the language. And marketing is also of key importance - which may be why 'Jewels of thought' made it, but 'Izipho Zam' didn't. (I've always wanted to get that Arista album, but never seen it. Always harboured a bit too much suspicion of Clive Davis to search hard. Maybe I'll look now.) MG

'Hawk eyes' was a Prestige album (7156) which was reissued on SV. I assume you mean Kenny Burrell, not Tiny Grimes, 'cos 'Until the real thing comes along' was on Hawk's LP 'Soul' on PR7149 (another reissued on SV). But speaking of REAL Swingville albums - I love Al Casey's 'Buck jumpin'' (SV2007) in which Rudy Powell replaces King Curtis in the King Curtis band, under Casey's leadership - OK, I AM a sucker for the one and only Herman Foster, but this is a totally splendid album. Also, one of the greatest albums ever Coleman Hawkins & Eddie 'Lockjaw' Davis - Night Hawk SV2016 - every time I play this I'm laid flat. There were some damn fine albums on Moodsville, too: Jaws & Red Garland - Moodsville 1 MV1 Jaws & Shirley - At ease MV4 Arnett Cobb - Ballads by Cobb MV14 Willis Jackson - In my solitude MV17 Gene Ammons - Nice n cool MV18 Gene Ammons - Soulful mood of MV28 Kenny Burrell with Hawk - Bluesy Burrell MV29 MG

Wings Wings Over Jordan Choir The Cosmopolitan Church of Prayer Choir

And, to continue with the finance bit, avant garde jazz albums could be small hit albums, too. Not many and not until 1967, but.... Nov 67 John Coltrane - Expression 3 wks on pop chart Aug 69 Pharoah Sanders - Karma 4 wks pop., 8 wks R&B May 70 Pharoah Sanders - Jewels of thought 2 wks R&B Jul 71 Pharoah Sanders - Thembi 3 wks pop Nov 71 Alice Coltrane - Universal consciousness 2 wks pop Nov 71 John Coltrane - Sun ship 3 wks pop Oct 74 Alice Coltrane - Illuminations 8 wks pop, 7 wks R&B Apr 78 Pharoah Sanders - Love will find a way 5 wks pop, 10 wks R&B (I don't know the last 2 - were they AG albums?) Not much, but they have to hide a much larger number of albums that weren't hits but which enabled people to recognise something or other in the albums that WERE hits. I'm very inclined to think that avant garde jazz wasn't ever thought about as a tax write-off for a short period of time, anyway. MG

David Rosenthal's book 'Hard bop' had some interesting money numbers about Blue Note albums. Where from, dunno, but I doubt if he made 'em up. The average first year sales (and BNs sold for decades) of hard bop LPs were about 7,000. The usual break-even point for an album was sales of 2,500. Blue Note were probably making money on pretty near everything they put out. Of course, as Guy says, they could have made more by making more soul jazz albums (or maybe not - there were cashflow problems arising from having to sell too big a proportion of your output to firms who wouldn't pay you until the NEXT hit came along, so maybe that was why they restricted the numbers). MG

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Prestige Bleedin' 'ell! And me a Prestige fan, as well as a Bryant fan. Never bought any of his Prestige stuff, funnily enough. Will correct this anomaly. MG

While I agree with you generally, you're way wrong about this. If you look at the stuff Chuck Nessa (and if he can't be described accurately as an 'avant garde listener', I don't know who can be) likes and thinks important, you find ALL sorts of stuff. And he's not the only one here; Larry Kart, Jim Sangrey, John Littweiler have all got very broad taste and can point out important stuff from beyond the avant garde. Hot Ptah, too, now I come to think of it. And Ubu. And Moms Mobley. Oh, Alan Lowe, too. Oh hell, I bet all of the avant fans here are WELL aware of the history of jazz and can identify important prior stuff they love to bits. (And some of them can even identify important soul jazz recordings they love to bits ) MG

The Yeti Bigfoot The Abominable Snowman

Miles Davis is "of interest" but the comparisons you often see to Picasso are just barmy and a reminder just how deliberately if artfully MOR his venture was. Well, actually, the Miles Davis album that I came closest to liking quite a lot was 'Quiet nights'. Strikes me that I might have liked him more if he'd been CLOSER to MOR than he was. MG

Muggsy Spanier The Lady of Spain The Lady in Red