Rooster_Ties

Gotta get my thinking cap on, and figure out what album I would pick (if I'm nominated).

I mentioned this in another thread, but thought I'd better oughta mention it here too... I think John Patton's "Boogaloo" might make for a really interesting and curious "Album of the Week". Anyone else with this album concur???? It's 'inside', it's 'outside', it 'grooves' -- all at the same time!!! It's my all-time favorite Patton album, and it was a session that wasn't ever even released until like 1999, which is at least 30 years after it was recorded. And, after all, this board really ought to do an 'Organ'-centric album of the week sometime, no?? PS: I know, I know - probably not enough people own "Boogaloo" to make it a good choice. If not, I'll just start a thread about it sometime, and see who chimes in about it.

By the way, I tried to make the case for Vincent McEwan back on the BNBB. I realize, he's only on like ONE real jazz date in his whole entire career, John Patton's "Boogaloo" - which was a session that was still in the can until like 1999!! ( ) Still, from that one date, I do think he's a curriously interesting trumpet player. Sure, not at all compared to the 'big' names (and even the 'little' names!!). But, I do really think that he's far more interesting than his incredibly modest output would indicate. (I mean, he's like 10 times more obscure that Tyrone Washington!!) And no, I'm not trying to make any kind of case for McEwan as being some long, lost 'great' trumpeter. Just this: that he's far more interesting than I'd ever expect, for a guy who recorded on one and only one "real" (meaning "heavy" and somewhat "progressive") jazz album in his entire career. And, on an album that didn't even see the light of day until 30+ years after it was recorded. Come on - all of you who own "Boogaloo", admit it. Based on his prior track record, and limited discography - he's a better player than you would have thought, no?? ( OK, I probably won't get anyone to agree with me on this one, but after Chuck dissed Charles Tolliver, I think I'm maybe up for a couple loosing battles!! ) ===== PS: The AMG says McEwan is on one other album, that looks like it might also be a "real" jazz album. Valerie Capers: Portrait in Soul. Hardly much of a review, it only says: "Rare septet, all Capers originals. Worth searching for." Here's the AMG bio for her too: Valerie Capers

Sure, Maupin's great on Lee Morgan's "Live At The Lighthouse", and (IMHO) also very good on Morgan's other BN studio dates. But, for me anyway, *THE* most exciting Maupin I've ever heard, to date, is on... Chick Corea: The Complete "Is" Sessions Damn -- I never knew Maupin had so much of what I love about Wayne Shorter's playing in him!!! I realize that the kind of 'Maupin' on the Morgan "Lighthouse" recordings probably isn't all that far removed from the "IS" sessions. But (and I probably can't quite put my finger on it, or not enough to explain this clearly) - I think Maupin's playing on "IS" (disc #1, particularly), is nearly every bit as exciting for me as any of Wayne Shorter's work on any/all of the live recordings by Miles Davis, from 1965 through 1969. (And, that's about the highest praise I can give, for that kind of tenor work.) Anybody else crazy about Maupin on the "IS" discs?? --- or at least on disc #1 of the "IS" set (I know, I know, I know, disc #2 is a bitch to get into (at least for me) --- and I think I've listened to disc #1 about 20 times as often as disc #2, which just isn't my bag. Not enough structure for me, though someday it may 'click' for me yet.) I think the week I got the Complete "IS" Sessions, I musta listened to it (meaning disc #1) at least 10 or 15 times, just that first week!!!

I thought of another one.... Kenny Dorham, on Andrew Hill's "Point of Departure" (1964) And, in a sorta weird way, there's also this date!! Vincent McEwan, on John Patton's "Boogaloo" (1968) Not really as 'out' as Patton ever got (later on), and if I remember right, it's the tenor player, Harold Alexander, that is the most 'out' thing on "Boogaloo". But, still, McEwan is basically a hardbopper playing in a mildly 'creative' context, albeit one that grooves!! And actually, Patton's "Boogaloo" makes be wish there was more McEwan on record, in small group contexts where he could solo. He's nothing that'll change your world, not even in a "Tyrone Washington"-kind of way (not even a little bit). McEwan's just a curious and occasionally interesting player (at least from what little I've heard), on what is my probably my *favorite* Patton album!!! PS: I think Patton's "Boogaloo" might make for a really interesting and curious "Album of the Week". Anyone else with this album concur???

Oh yeah, another obvious one. I think I do the same thing with Dolphy as Ornette - since 95% of their output is on other labels, and since neither one recorded as a sideman on any other BN dates (except "Point of Departure" and "New and Old Gospel"), I mentally just think of them as not being part of the Blue Note, or at least not at their core.

Oh yeah, I had *completely* forgotten about Byrd's "Free Form". In fact, I think that particular tune ("Free Form", if I remember right), is simply one of the earliest 'free'-ish tunes in the entire BN catalog!! I remember, when I first heard that album - and that tune in particular (which I remember as being much more 'free' than the rest of the album), I simply couldn't believe what my eyes were seeing on the back cover. "Was this really recorded in 1961????" - I asked myself. The tune is credited to Byrd, but I always thought that the sidemen had the bigger hand in this case. Good suggestion!!!

That's one of the things I said to Hutcherson, backstage a couple years ago. "Thank you for giving Joe Chambers so many tunes on all your albums." I think there's probably a good album-and-a-half worth of Chambers tunes, between all the Hutcherson albums. Heck, half of "Components" is all Chambers, and it's really damn good stuff. Actually, I suspect I would have enjoyed any (hypothetical) "classic era" BN albums lead by Chambers, more than either of Tony Williams actual "classic era" BN albums. (Not that they're bad, but I've never really gotten into either one very deeply. Been ages since I've listened to either one, so that's another couple I need to dig out and spin soon.) In my 'pretend world', I think Chambers could have probably done two albums on BN, but anything more than two stretches the "plausibility" factor a bit too much, even for me.

What if I took back the comment about your "big ears"??? (even if they do look like this)

Absolutely, Woody Shaw for sure. We need to come up with some line-ups for a few great Woody Shaw BN albums from the late 60's, that (unfortunately) never were to be. And actually, I normally think of Woody Shaw's "Cassandranite"/"In The Beginning" as almost being a real Blue Note album. Hell, I think every sideman on the thing was a mainstay at BN.

Here's a link: Zbigniew Seifert. Must admit, he was a name I had never heard of... Oh yeah, the game... Sylvester Kyner (better known as Sonny Red)

And, you gotta click HERE for more Zoot!!!

OK, here's a topic I can really get into, cuz this drives a hell of a lot of my purchasing decisions of late. Over the last 2 years especially, I can't seem to get enough of trumpeters from the 60's, who were basically hardboppers at heart (and nearly all their own releases and tunes were basically 'hardbop' in nature), and who were often very forward-thinking hardboppers -- AND, who recorded as sidemen on bunches of really progressive dates, like these... Lee Morgan on... Larry Young: "Mother Ship" (1969) <---- Double Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "Grass Roots" (1968) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "Lift Every Voice" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Elvin Jones: "Prime Element" (1969) Grachan Moncur III: "Evolution" (1963) Freddie Hubbard on... Ornette Coleman: "Free Jazz" (1960) Eric Dolphy: "Out to Lunch" (1964) Andrew Hill: "Compulsion" (1965) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "One for One" (the 1965 half of this double-LP) <---- Wow!!! Bobby Hutcherson: "Components" (1965) Bobby Hutcherson: "Dialogue" (1965) Sam Rivers: "Contours" (1965) <---- Wow!!! Wayne Shorter: "All Seeing Eye" (1965) <---- Wow!!! Woody Shaw on... Chick Corea: "Complete 'Is' Sessions" (1969) Stanley Cowell: "Brilliant Circles" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Eric Dolphy: "Iron Man" (1963) Andrew Hill: "Grass Roots" (1968) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "Lift Every Voice" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "Tomorrow is Now!!" released as --> "Passing Ships" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Jackie McLean: "'Bout Soul" (1967) Jackie McLean: "Demon's Dance" (1967) McCoy Tyner: "Expansions" (1968) Tyrone Washington: "Natural Essence" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Larry Young: "Unity" (1965) <---- Wow!!! Charles Tolliver on... Gary Bartz: "Another Earth" (1968) Andrew Hill: "Dance with Death" (1968) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "One for One" (one of the 1969 sessions only) <---- Wow!!! Jackie McLean: "Action" (1964) <---- Wow!!! Jackie McLean: "It's Time" (1964) <---- Wow!!! Jackie McLean: "Jacknife" (1966) <---- Wow!!! I know a few of these albums aren't quite as far "out" as most of the others, particularly the Jackie McLean albums with Tolliver - but Tolliver's playing is so progressive with McLean, I had to include it here. Several months ago I had the McLean Mosaic out, after not having heard it in over a year - and I was blown away at how free many of Tolliver's solos were. In some cases, I seriously thought I might have heard some Ornette (on trumpet!!!) influence on Tolliver. Or, at least some of what Tolliver was doing reminded me of the freedom of Ornette on trumpet. Does anyone else here get off on this shit as much as I do!!!???? (Sorry, I had an "Aric" moment there for a just a second. ) If only there were more albums like this in the vaults. Some more stuff that hits me the same way... Richard Williams on half the tracks (the 'progressive' ones) on Booker Ervin's "The In Between", does the same thing for me too. Michael Ray's work with Sun Ra - cuz he's kind of an "inside/outside" trumpet player (well, he's more "outside" than "inside", but it tickles the same part of my brain as the trumpet stuff listed up above.) Tim Hagans (sometimes), cuz he's done a project or two that's a little bit more 'out', but he's still basically a hardbop guy, mostly. You get the idea. I'm trying to think of some others. What/who am I forgetting???

I'd still take a chance on Jackie, years before I'd ever book Freddie Hubbard these days. I understand Hubbard's track-record over the last 5-10 years is pretty spotty, and that might be putting it kindly. I tried to catch Freddie in St. Louis about 10 years ago, for a 4-night gig (Wed-Sat), I think he only played one hour on the Wed. show (which I missed), and then didn't show at all for the other three. (Actually, what I heard was that he played the heads of most of the tunes, and only three short solos on that Wed. night show - and then didn't play the last set at all.) He (meaning Freddie) missed a Kansas City gig here 6 or 7 years ago too - just never made it, and from what I heard, he never gave any good reason for missing the gig. ===== Anyway, back to Jackie... As long as there isn't too much 'up-front' money involved (non-refundable), and the airfair to fly him there isn't too expensive - I'd say maybe take a chance on Jackie. Just make sure you pay for an extra hotel night for him, one night before you need him. I'd imagine that an overseas flight light that would take a lot out of him. Hell, it takes a bunch out of me - the three times I've been overseas - and I was in my 20's and 30's each time. The other thing is that if he's questionable for gigs these days, and he knows it, then he might be less likely to agree to even take an overseas gig, where the logistics are more complicated, etc... Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

Marvin Hamlisch??? Nah... Merl Saunders??? Closer, but still not quite... Marcus Miller??? Well, that's open to debate too... Mike Zwerin!!! Yeah, that'll work!!! (Gotta confess I had to look Zwerin up, to get the spelling - but I did remember the 'Mike' part, and that he was the guy on the 'live' Birth of the Cool material. Actually, his AMG bio was far more interesting than I ever imagined: Mike Zwerin (AMG bio). Hell, I would have bet $10 that he didn't even have an AMG bio, but then I just thought he was some obscure trombone player from back in the late 40's.)

Damn, what an interesting idea - Tolliver with those Sun Ra sidemen. And, what I also like about it is that they all actually recorded on Blue Note as sidemen, several times each in fact -- so it rates relatively high on the "plausibility" scale. (Unlike getting Sun Ra himself to somehow have had a Blue Note album in the late 60's - which really stretches the imagination much, much to far. ) Clinton, how's about we slot in your idea for a Tolliver-lead album with the Sun Ra sidemen, as Tolliver's 4th Blue Note album (out of a total of 6!!), sometime in 1968. ( Am I'm pushing it to suggest that Tolliver could have had a total of 6 Blue Note albums, had the stars and planets been aligned differently??? There are other artists who I think could have lead on BN too, but would have only been one or maybe two shot deals, at best. Others I think could have done more like 4, or even 5 or 6.) And what about some other suggestions, besides Tolliver?? Come on people -- I had more than 10 artists in mind, at first, and then I cut them down to just 10 when I still was gonna do the silly "poll" version of this thread. I can suggest them all myself, with line-ups and everything, but I wanna see what other people come up with too. I would have never thought of pairing Tolliver with the Sun Ra sidemen, so this thread is already generating the kind of ideas I'm looking for. Keep 'em coming!! Thanks!!! B)

Silly suggestion, perhaps, but is there any value (perhaps only tiny amount) in getting your band and CD added to the "www.allmusic.com" database?? (Both a bio, and a review.) Just for yucks, a few days ago I seriously looked up "Organissimo" on AMG, only to find no entry. Probably doesn't do a thing for you in terms of getting gigs, but perhaps there's some small value in it - especially if you can get a good on-line review out of it, in terms of being able to pass the word about your band and recording(s). A good review there might also be a way to lend some credibility to others who haven't heard you, and are considering hiring you for gigs. Other on-line reviews would be helpful too, I suspect, but AMG is kind of a one-stop "what's this group all about" place to go, and I think lots of people go there, where they wouldn't necessarily know to look for reviews of your album in other contexts. (Then again, they'd have to be specifically looking for your AMG bio and/or review, in the first place.) Just some more ideas...

Nasheet Waits!!!

Oh yeah, Ornette. Mentally I usually don't think of him as a BN artist, since so much of his work was for other labels. Also, he wasn't really part of that pool of musicians (IMO). But then again, he is on "Old and New Gospel" -- but not on alto!!!!

Yeah, I think you're right about all of Kyner's solos on BN being better than all of Spaulding's work as a sideman with Hubbard. But, (fairly or not), I usually mostly blame this on Hubbard - since most of the Hubbard/Spaulding dates fall flat for me, all the way around. (Hard for Spaulding to make it happen if the date ain't happening in the first place, is my take on things.) Sometimes Spaulding is on fire, but (truthfully) his BN work is probably inconsistant. But then, for me, all of Hubbard's sideman dates on BN are all better than any of Hubbard's own dates, so that's inconsistant too. ( And, oh yeah, Donaldson!! He didn't do any sideman dates on any progressive titles, so I forget about him easily. I have only a smattering of Donaldson's BN work, either as a leader, or sideman dates. He's not high on my radar, right or wrong. ) Thinking of other alto's on BN, there's Leo Wright, who I only know from Blue Mitchel's very first album, the one with Joe Henderson. Oh wait, I see on AMG he's also on "Little Johnny C" - which I forgot, but Joe's on that one too, so I guess I blurred the two together. I really like Wright's playing, at least from what's on these two albums (which is the only Wright I've heard). Are there any other alto's on BN as sidemen, even if just a one or two-shot appearance - like Leo Wright??

Pepper Adams

By the way, maybe I should mention that as much as I'm a fan of Spaulding on all the 'progressive' dates, "Solid", the Hutchersons, the Shorters, and most of the Pearsons... I'm really not much of a fan of Spaulding's work on Freddie Hubbard's early BN albums. Nothing really wrong with his playing, but I don't find it all that inspiring there. (I've never heard any of the late 60's Hubbard albums (with Spaulding), so I'm not sure if this is common to all of Hubbard's albums.) Maybe I should also mention that I'm also not a huge fan of Hubbard's own dates on Blue Note. Some are good, but others don't really do as much for me. I guess they're 'good' too, but certainly not 'great' in my book. I am, however, a *huge* fan of nearly every sideman appearance by Hubbard, on Blue Note, especially the more 'progressive' dates. Long post made short - I don't think Hubbard brought out the best in Spaulding. And I especially don't care for Spaulding's flute work on the Hubbard albums in particular. But (IMHO), Spaulding's flute in other contexts is fine with me -- for instance I like it quite well on the Tyrone Washington album.

Nah, I didn't intend for this to be an "all Tolliver" thread, not at all. Really, I could have picked a dozen other people to lead things off with - but I went with my heart, with Tolliver. I even had 10 'poll items' all picked out, so people could vote for their favorites - but then I thought that would be rather silly, since most of us would want 'new' (old) dates from nearly all of them. Plus, my list was pretty skewed towards the late 60's "progressive" hardboppers, like Tolliver, and some others I'll bring up in this thread later - if someone doesn't beat me to it. I'm curious to see who all everyone suggests, and if there is any dissent about the plausibility of any suggestions put forth. Ideally I'd like for this thread to be a debate about the merits of particular artists and their potential to have lead more dates earlier in their career, and for an important label like Blue Note. And, I'd love a little dissent to get going in this thread, if people don't think that artist XYZ had what it takes to be a leader, either that early in their career, or for whatever other reasons people might have. ========== ( And I'll go on record here that I'd love to get Chuck Nessa's input in this thread, in as much as he's interested. Chuck, I think you know the 'character' of the Blue Note label (especially in the mid-60's, late 60's, and very, very early 70's) - as well or better than anyone I've ever crossed paths with. You've got big ears, and especially have an incredible handle on the more creative and progressive dates on the label - the kind that seemed to become less and less frequent on BN after 1967. I'd love to hear you propose some albums and line-ups that really could have happened on BN, if only a few factors had been (admittedly) quite a bit different. )

I don't know about Jackie, I'm afraid. He was supposed to play here in Kansas City in (I think it was) March of 2002. He supposedly got to the airport to get on the plane, but didn't feel up to the trip - or somehow got sick at the airport. I've heard other other cases where he's missed gigs in the past couple years. And I'm sure I've heard feedback from people who have heard him at gigs too - so it's not like he's missing every gig he gets booked for. Has anyone here heard Jackie in the last 3 years??? I heard him about 7 years ago, here in Kansas City, and he seemed in good health then - but 7 years is quite a long time. His playing 7 years ago was top notch. Somebody should get 'hardbop' over here from AAJ, and get his input on this question. He seems to get to every jazz show in NYC (or at least the one's that are conservative enough for him), and I'm sure if Jackie's played in NYC anytime in the last 2 years - 'hardbop' was there.