Rooster_Ties

OK, here's a topic I can really get into, cuz this drives a hell of a lot of my purchasing decisions of late. Over the last 2 years especially, I can't seem to get enough of trumpeters from the 60's, who were basically hardboppers at heart (and nearly all their own releases and tunes were basically 'hardbop' in nature), and who were often very forward-thinking hardboppers -- AND, who recorded as sidemen on bunches of really progressive dates, like these... Lee Morgan on... Larry Young: "Mother Ship" (1969) <---- Double Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "Grass Roots" (1968) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "Lift Every Voice" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Elvin Jones: "Prime Element" (1969) Grachan Moncur III: "Evolution" (1963) Freddie Hubbard on... Ornette Coleman: "Free Jazz" (1960) Eric Dolphy: "Out to Lunch" (1964) Andrew Hill: "Compulsion" (1965) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "One for One" (the 1965 half of this double-LP) <---- Wow!!! Bobby Hutcherson: "Components" (1965) Bobby Hutcherson: "Dialogue" (1965) Sam Rivers: "Contours" (1965) <---- Wow!!! Wayne Shorter: "All Seeing Eye" (1965) <---- Wow!!! Woody Shaw on... Chick Corea: "Complete 'Is' Sessions" (1969) Stanley Cowell: "Brilliant Circles" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Eric Dolphy: "Iron Man" (1963) Andrew Hill: "Grass Roots" (1968) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "Lift Every Voice" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "Tomorrow is Now!!" released as --> "Passing Ships" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Jackie McLean: "'Bout Soul" (1967) Jackie McLean: "Demon's Dance" (1967) McCoy Tyner: "Expansions" (1968) Tyrone Washington: "Natural Essence" (1969) <---- Wow!!! Larry Young: "Unity" (1965) <---- Wow!!! Charles Tolliver on... Gary Bartz: "Another Earth" (1968) Andrew Hill: "Dance with Death" (1968) <---- Wow!!! Andrew Hill: "One for One" (one of the 1969 sessions only) <---- Wow!!! Jackie McLean: "Action" (1964) <---- Wow!!! Jackie McLean: "It's Time" (1964) <---- Wow!!! Jackie McLean: "Jacknife" (1966) <---- Wow!!! I know a few of these albums aren't quite as far "out" as most of the others, particularly the Jackie McLean albums with Tolliver - but Tolliver's playing is so progressive with McLean, I had to include it here. Several months ago I had the McLean Mosaic out, after not having heard it in over a year - and I was blown away at how free many of Tolliver's solos were. In some cases, I seriously thought I might have heard some Ornette (on trumpet!!!) influence on Tolliver. Or, at least some of what Tolliver was doing reminded me of the freedom of Ornette on trumpet. Does anyone else here get off on this shit as much as I do!!!???? (Sorry, I had an "Aric" moment there for a just a second. ) If only there were more albums like this in the vaults. Some more stuff that hits me the same way... Richard Williams on half the tracks (the 'progressive' ones) on Booker Ervin's "The In Between", does the same thing for me too. Michael Ray's work with Sun Ra - cuz he's kind of an "inside/outside" trumpet player (well, he's more "outside" than "inside", but it tickles the same part of my brain as the trumpet stuff listed up above.) Tim Hagans (sometimes), cuz he's done a project or two that's a little bit more 'out', but he's still basically a hardbop guy, mostly. You get the idea. I'm trying to think of some others. What/who am I forgetting???

I'd still take a chance on Jackie, years before I'd ever book Freddie Hubbard these days. I understand Hubbard's track-record over the last 5-10 years is pretty spotty, and that might be putting it kindly. I tried to catch Freddie in St. Louis about 10 years ago, for a 4-night gig (Wed-Sat), I think he only played one hour on the Wed. show (which I missed), and then didn't show at all for the other three. (Actually, what I heard was that he played the heads of most of the tunes, and only three short solos on that Wed. night show - and then didn't play the last set at all.) He (meaning Freddie) missed a Kansas City gig here 6 or 7 years ago too - just never made it, and from what I heard, he never gave any good reason for missing the gig. ===== Anyway, back to Jackie... As long as there isn't too much 'up-front' money involved (non-refundable), and the airfair to fly him there isn't too expensive - I'd say maybe take a chance on Jackie. Just make sure you pay for an extra hotel night for him, one night before you need him. I'd imagine that an overseas flight light that would take a lot out of him. Hell, it takes a bunch out of me - the three times I've been overseas - and I was in my 20's and 30's each time. The other thing is that if he's questionable for gigs these days, and he knows it, then he might be less likely to agree to even take an overseas gig, where the logistics are more complicated, etc... Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

Marvin Hamlisch??? Nah... Merl Saunders??? Closer, but still not quite... Marcus Miller??? Well, that's open to debate too... Mike Zwerin!!! Yeah, that'll work!!! (Gotta confess I had to look Zwerin up, to get the spelling - but I did remember the 'Mike' part, and that he was the guy on the 'live' Birth of the Cool material. Actually, his AMG bio was far more interesting than I ever imagined: Mike Zwerin (AMG bio). Hell, I would have bet $10 that he didn't even have an AMG bio, but then I just thought he was some obscure trombone player from back in the late 40's.)

Damn, what an interesting idea - Tolliver with those Sun Ra sidemen. And, what I also like about it is that they all actually recorded on Blue Note as sidemen, several times each in fact -- so it rates relatively high on the "plausibility" scale. (Unlike getting Sun Ra himself to somehow have had a Blue Note album in the late 60's - which really stretches the imagination much, much to far. ) Clinton, how's about we slot in your idea for a Tolliver-lead album with the Sun Ra sidemen, as Tolliver's 4th Blue Note album (out of a total of 6!!), sometime in 1968. ( Am I'm pushing it to suggest that Tolliver could have had a total of 6 Blue Note albums, had the stars and planets been aligned differently??? There are other artists who I think could have lead on BN too, but would have only been one or maybe two shot deals, at best. Others I think could have done more like 4, or even 5 or 6.) And what about some other suggestions, besides Tolliver?? Come on people -- I had more than 10 artists in mind, at first, and then I cut them down to just 10 when I still was gonna do the silly "poll" version of this thread. I can suggest them all myself, with line-ups and everything, but I wanna see what other people come up with too. I would have never thought of pairing Tolliver with the Sun Ra sidemen, so this thread is already generating the kind of ideas I'm looking for. Keep 'em coming!! Thanks!!! B)

Silly suggestion, perhaps, but is there any value (perhaps only tiny amount) in getting your band and CD added to the "www.allmusic.com" database?? (Both a bio, and a review.) Just for yucks, a few days ago I seriously looked up "Organissimo" on AMG, only to find no entry. Probably doesn't do a thing for you in terms of getting gigs, but perhaps there's some small value in it - especially if you can get a good on-line review out of it, in terms of being able to pass the word about your band and recording(s). A good review there might also be a way to lend some credibility to others who haven't heard you, and are considering hiring you for gigs. Other on-line reviews would be helpful too, I suspect, but AMG is kind of a one-stop "what's this group all about" place to go, and I think lots of people go there, where they wouldn't necessarily know to look for reviews of your album in other contexts. (Then again, they'd have to be specifically looking for your AMG bio and/or review, in the first place.) Just some more ideas...

Nasheet Waits!!!

Oh yeah, Ornette. Mentally I usually don't think of him as a BN artist, since so much of his work was for other labels. Also, he wasn't really part of that pool of musicians (IMO). But then again, he is on "Old and New Gospel" -- but not on alto!!!!

Yeah, I think you're right about all of Kyner's solos on BN being better than all of Spaulding's work as a sideman with Hubbard. But, (fairly or not), I usually mostly blame this on Hubbard - since most of the Hubbard/Spaulding dates fall flat for me, all the way around. (Hard for Spaulding to make it happen if the date ain't happening in the first place, is my take on things.) Sometimes Spaulding is on fire, but (truthfully) his BN work is probably inconsistant. But then, for me, all of Hubbard's sideman dates on BN are all better than any of Hubbard's own dates, so that's inconsistant too. ( And, oh yeah, Donaldson!! He didn't do any sideman dates on any progressive titles, so I forget about him easily. I have only a smattering of Donaldson's BN work, either as a leader, or sideman dates. He's not high on my radar, right or wrong. ) Thinking of other alto's on BN, there's Leo Wright, who I only know from Blue Mitchel's very first album, the one with Joe Henderson. Oh wait, I see on AMG he's also on "Little Johnny C" - which I forgot, but Joe's on that one too, so I guess I blurred the two together. I really like Wright's playing, at least from what's on these two albums (which is the only Wright I've heard). Are there any other alto's on BN as sidemen, even if just a one or two-shot appearance - like Leo Wright??

Pepper Adams

By the way, maybe I should mention that as much as I'm a fan of Spaulding on all the 'progressive' dates, "Solid", the Hutchersons, the Shorters, and most of the Pearsons... I'm really not much of a fan of Spaulding's work on Freddie Hubbard's early BN albums. Nothing really wrong with his playing, but I don't find it all that inspiring there. (I've never heard any of the late 60's Hubbard albums (with Spaulding), so I'm not sure if this is common to all of Hubbard's albums.) Maybe I should also mention that I'm also not a huge fan of Hubbard's own dates on Blue Note. Some are good, but others don't really do as much for me. I guess they're 'good' too, but certainly not 'great' in my book. I am, however, a *huge* fan of nearly every sideman appearance by Hubbard, on Blue Note, especially the more 'progressive' dates. Long post made short - I don't think Hubbard brought out the best in Spaulding. And I especially don't care for Spaulding's flute work on the Hubbard albums in particular. But (IMHO), Spaulding's flute in other contexts is fine with me -- for instance I like it quite well on the Tyrone Washington album.

Nah, I didn't intend for this to be an "all Tolliver" thread, not at all. Really, I could have picked a dozen other people to lead things off with - but I went with my heart, with Tolliver. I even had 10 'poll items' all picked out, so people could vote for their favorites - but then I thought that would be rather silly, since most of us would want 'new' (old) dates from nearly all of them. Plus, my list was pretty skewed towards the late 60's "progressive" hardboppers, like Tolliver, and some others I'll bring up in this thread later - if someone doesn't beat me to it. I'm curious to see who all everyone suggests, and if there is any dissent about the plausibility of any suggestions put forth. Ideally I'd like for this thread to be a debate about the merits of particular artists and their potential to have lead more dates earlier in their career, and for an important label like Blue Note. And, I'd love a little dissent to get going in this thread, if people don't think that artist XYZ had what it takes to be a leader, either that early in their career, or for whatever other reasons people might have. ========== ( And I'll go on record here that I'd love to get Chuck Nessa's input in this thread, in as much as he's interested. Chuck, I think you know the 'character' of the Blue Note label (especially in the mid-60's, late 60's, and very, very early 70's) - as well or better than anyone I've ever crossed paths with. You've got big ears, and especially have an incredible handle on the more creative and progressive dates on the label - the kind that seemed to become less and less frequent on BN after 1967. I'd love to hear you propose some albums and line-ups that really could have happened on BN, if only a few factors had been (admittedly) quite a bit different. )

I don't know about Jackie, I'm afraid. He was supposed to play here in Kansas City in (I think it was) March of 2002. He supposedly got to the airport to get on the plane, but didn't feel up to the trip - or somehow got sick at the airport. I've heard other other cases where he's missed gigs in the past couple years. And I'm sure I've heard feedback from people who have heard him at gigs too - so it's not like he's missing every gig he gets booked for. Has anyone here heard Jackie in the last 3 years??? I heard him about 7 years ago, here in Kansas City, and he seemed in good health then - but 7 years is quite a long time. His playing 7 years ago was top notch. Somebody should get 'hardbop' over here from AAJ, and get his input on this question. He seems to get to every jazz show in NYC (or at least the one's that are conservative enough for him), and I'm sure if Jackie's played in NYC anytime in the last 2 years - 'hardbop' was there.

I was thinking about doing this as a poll, but I didn't want to "lead the witness", so to speak. By "defend your choice", I mean on the artistic merits --- not on whether BN would have been open to it based on the business climate at the time, and not on whether the Liberty era BN would have been as open to these possibilities, as they might have been if BN hadn't been sold to Liberty in 1967. In fact, just for the sake of this thread - let's assume that Liberty didn't buy BN until late 1974. That would give us a full 7 more years to play "what if", in terms of who could have gotten recorded - and gotten the chance to be leaders on their own dates. And, let's assume that the bottom didn't fall out of the jazz market quite so quickly as it did. I know, I'm suggesting that we rewrite history - but that's what this whole thread is about anyway!! Also, I want specific suggestions for what year artist XYZ could have and should have been given the chance to be their own leader. I want real, plausible suggestions. In fact, it might even be fun to suggest potential line-ups. And as long as we're at it, you can also suggest additional ("hypothetical") BN albums by established BN artists, who either fell away from the label sometime in the 60's, or who only got to lead a very few BN dates. I'll go first... =============== Charles Tolliver - I think Tolliver could have easily lead 4 or 5 BN dates of his own, the first one being recorded in 1965, with the following line-up... Jackie McLean (an obvious creative and marketing choice, since Tolliver was on three of McLean's dates) or James Spaulding (who really played with Tolliver in '65, as documented on that "New Wave in Jazz" disc) Herbie Hancock (played on at least a couple McLean albums, one of which included Tolliver, and Herbie was on Tolliver's first album in 1968) Cecil McBee (who did record for BN, with Jackie, and often with Tolliver in the early 70's) Joe Chambers (a frequent BN drummer on all kinds of dates) And my defense of Tolliver as a real candidate for his own mid-60's BN date (several, in fact) is how incredibly strong he is on the Jackie McLean albums he's on between 1964-66. For example: A friend of mine bought the McLean Mosaic just about a year ago (for the first time), and it was his first time ever hearing any of the McLean BN material with Tolliver. My friend said that Tolliver just about steals the show. Jackie's playing is fantastic, but nearly every one of Tolliver's tunes are the strongest tunes on every McLean album he's on, overshadowing McLean's own tunes (which are still really darn good). I absolutely concur... More generally, I think Tolliver was one of the strongest hard-bop composers (and players) to come on the scene after 1963 (which was really a watershed year for jazz, and hardbop in particular, in terms of integrating and reacting to the the 'New Thing', both of Ornette, and Coltrane). And, in his many sideman appearances, (I think) almost every tune that Tolliver wrote and recorded in the 60's is a classic. How Tolliver didn't get a record an album under his own leadership until 1968 is beyond me!!!

The new colors are indeed cool, both literally and figuratively. I'm going with the new ones for now...

Hey Chuck... I'm curious about your thoughts on Mr. Spaulding. I suspect you probably like him a fair bit, especially in the more progressive (or at least hard-driving) contexts. ========== I'm starting to get the impression that Spaulding was sometimes capable of playing 'kinda-sorta' in the same ballpark as Jackie (particularly on "All Seeing Eye" and "Natural Selection" --- and I'll hafta spin the Larry Young and Sam Rivers again soon, I haven't heard them in a while). In particular, there's one solo that Spaulding plays on "All Seeing Eye" (track 3 = "Chaos") where I really thought it could have been Jackie (I even looked at the CD case to confirm that it wasn't Jackie), even if the language wasn't quite the same - I thought the 'fire' was just as hot, and the ideas were just as strong (and strangely enough, the tone was a little similar). In particular, Chuck, do you think Spaulding would have been deserving of getting to be the leader on a couple Blue Note dates, back in the day, say sometime around 1965 or 1966?? Maybe it's just the contexts Spaulding plays in (which I like so much), but in some ways I think Spaulding is my second favorite alto player on the 60's BN roster. In fact - who else was there (on alto, on BN, in the 60's)?? Sonny Red?? I like Red, sure (particularly on the mid-60's Byrd dates), but he's not quite Spaulding in terms of versitility --- I don't think Red did any progressive dates. Who else?? I must be forgetting one or two alto players on BN. I can more easily think of tenors - maybe BN was more tenor-heavy that decade?? Surely there must be at least one more than just Jackie, Spaulding, and Red?? Who am I forgetting?? Not Bartz - he never did a BN date that I can think of. No wait, he was on a couple Tyner dates, but very late in the 60's. Who else played alto on BN during the pre-Liberty era?? (but after, say, about 1960)

That was the exact same reasoning for why I speculated that I might vote for "Black Fire", way up in my very first post that started this thread. For me, "Black Fire" seems like the most "Andrew Hill"-ish Andrew Hill album, out of the whole bunch, even over "PoD". In fact, I've never thought "PoD" sounded particularly "Andrew Hill"-ish, except in some of the parts where Hill is soloing. But, other than that - "PoD" always seemed, somehow, something else entirely. In fact, I think very early on, when I had less than 500 CD's (a LONG time ago), I think I tried organizing my CD's by where I thought they should go, and not by who's name was on the spine. I think I may have catagorized "PoD" as sounding to me (at the time) more like an Eric Dolphy album, and I think I used to store it briefly next to "Out to Lunch". ( FYI, I still haven't voted, but I will by week's end. ) You know, I haven't listened to "PoD" in ages, but with all this renewed interest in Hill that I've drummed up - I probably should, especially after having heard nearly all the other Hill sessions within such a short period of time. May bring me some new insights to "PoD".

Yes!!!

Harold Vick!!! ( And, damn it, I'm still thinking of a an obscure guy with a "V" first name. Some hints - he was a on at least three BN recordings during 1960-1970 -- and, he was a bass player. )

Are you seriously suggesting that you're not interested in cleavage? I guess if you are always playing with organs, you lose interest............ ROTFLOL!!!!

Oh yeah, I had forgotten about the "Frantic" title, but now that you mention it - that does kinda ring a bell. I used to be far more deeply ensconced (maybe a better word these days would be "embedded") in Miles music, about 10 years ago, but I've forgotten lots of the details since I backed off from my focus on Miles.

Sorry to intrude on the game - everyone just keep it going around any side discussion I'm imposing here. James, I'm afraid I've never heard of "Vernell Fornier". And based on his listing in the AMG, I didn't see any BN dates that he had played on. Good try though!!

Tom Varner ( And, since nobody got this last time, I'm still thinking of a good (but probably obscure) guy with a "V" first name. Same hint - he was a on at least three BN recordings during 1960-1970. )

Bennie Maupin

Your loss, Dan, and ours too. Hate to see you go (sincerely). But, that said, I'll also say this... Geez, do you stay in your house all day long, just cuz you can't "automatically" ignore the people and things you don't like, that you might encounter during the day?? You realize that by filtering out the people who's political views you don't like, you automatically will/would be filtering out everything they say - even the jazz related stuff too. Kinda sad, if you ask me...

I voted for the Live 1967 material, which I've heard about 3-4 hours of. Much as I also like the Plugged Nickel material, I *love* the '67 Live material, for two reasons. 1) They started doing more of the new material, although some standards still too. And, 2) there's a refinement - without any loss in energy - that just isn't quite there in the '65 material. Maybe that wasn't their aim in '65, and in talking with Herbie (briefly) after a show of his about 5 years ago - he said that they were at a creative impass when the Plugged Nickel material was recorded. At the time, they thought "why the hell are they recording us, now?? - of all times!!". Then, years later, in retrospect, he said that the material really was far more interesting than any of them could have predicted. Somehow they found a new kind of creativity, within their stuggle. In many ways, I think the Plugged Nickel recordings are just as 'free' as anything Miles did in the 70's. That said, there's a subtleness, a more integrated feel to everything this group did in 1967, both in the studio and on stage. And the live material from 1967 combines what I love about the 1967 studio material, with the energy and punch of the live 1969 band.