skeith

Not sure what this means as I am not up on cybertalk. these people on those planes were friends, neighbors, relatives of close friends. sorry if you are bored.

so enlighten us please. It's pretty simple. Nobody knows exactly what when on up there, including whether they were trying to save themselves or save the Whitehouse or whatever, except the people who were there. And they are all dead. And in the end, it doesn't matter whether or not they were trying to save their own lives, the lives of people on the ground, or the Whitehouse. The simple fact is they recognized they were not going to be held hostage but instead they were dead meat and decided to do something about it, instead of passively allowing a few men to control their collective destiny. And for that they are heroes. Not exactly true that only the passengers knew what went on up there , because a number of the passengers were having conversations with relatives and others on the ground about what had occurred at the Trade Center, etc. and about what the passengers were planning to do So one issue is that the United 93 passengers had a big advantage over the passengers who crashed into the Trade Center because those passengers had no warning that these were suicide flights. those passengers should not be denigrated for letting others control their destiny because they probably really believed if they did not resist, they would return to the airport. Furthermore, I think it does matter whether they were trying to save just themselves or others. Saving yourself is not usually a heroic act, saving others is. But what do I know, I am just pathetic right?

I tend to agree, though a bit of reflection on human nature suggests that most (probably all) were trying to save themselves first. The thought that they might save others on the ground was probably quite secondary, though that reality likely dawned upon some of them as time went on. Ironically, in failing to save themselves they most likely saved many others. No matter what happened up there, I think they're heroes. I saw the A&E movie a few months ago. Thought it was pretty well done for the most part. Planning to see this one this weekend. Looking forward to it (sort of). Of course, they did not have to all have the same motive. On the other hand, I fail to see how you could think you were saving yourself unless you thought a passenger could fly the plane and was able to get the controls away from the hijackers in a matter of seconds -given the low flying altitude. Do you have any evidence that the passengers thought they could do these things?

so enlighten us please.

Well that is a bit of a change Chris, before you were saying that the passengers acted only out of the interest to save their own lives. who was going to fly the plane Chris? One more fact: In stating your belief you do not support it with a single fact that relates to what we do know. Now let it rest.

So Alex, let me get this straight, you become irrational and inhumane by fighting against the people who are trying to kill you? Give me a break................ So Alex, if someone were trying to strangle you, would you just let them finish the job out of fear of losing your humanity? Did I say that I wouldn't do that same thing they did? Of course not. I'm just saying that the struggle to survive reduces us to our animal insticts. Watch the movie. The mob of howling passengers are depicted literally tearing the hijackers to pieces. Were they justified in their actions? Darn tootin'. Would they be proud of what circumstances forced them to do? No way. Eli Weisel wrote quite elequently about how the conditions in the Concentration Camps turned him and other inmates into animals concerned with nothing but their own survival. He describes a son strangling is own father to death over a piece of bread. It was every man for himself, but that doesn't mean that that anyone would be PROUD of their actions under such circumstances. I'm sure the members of the Donner party felt pretty horrible about what they had to do to survive. I'm sure it haunted them for the rest of their lives. I saw the movie, no hijacker winds up in pieces. One is killed by a mob of passengers, but that is because since they had no serious weapons, it took a number of passengers to subdue the guy who they appear to beat to death. As for "howling" - yes there was screaming in the struggle - it seems you want to degrade the passengers. In the cockpit - there is a struggle. Again I saw no one in pieces. I understand your rationale but it smacks too much to me of equating the victim with the perpetrator. The families of Flight 93 can be proud that the actions of those passengers saved american lives and perhaps the Capitol building. I remember by the way, you stating on the first anniversary of 9/11, that you saw signs saying "We will never forget" and your reaction was "forget what?" Yeah I think I know where you are coming from.

Yes, Chris I admit that I am not sure what actually happened- that's why I used the phrase "I think" but what I mean by "I think" - that it is a rational deduction based on the circumstances that probably approaches the truth. I am not just making stuff up. And the key element here is if indeed the passengers were merely seeking to save their own lives - what was the likelihood that a passenger could have flown the plane to a safe landing. I submit to you based on the film, and all that I know about it, there was very little if any chance of that. I noticed that you chose not to deal with my argument, but instead raised Jessica Lynch. And as for butting in, nothing stopped you from butting in to arguments I have had with others on this Board.

I am not so sure, as you seem to be Chris, that the passengers were trying to save themselves. First of all, I am not sure that there were any passengers on the plane capable of flying it. Even as depicted in the film, and I don't know whether it was true, there is only one guy who says he is a pilot, but he hastens to add he has never flown a plane like the one they are in. Furthermore, he also states, and again whether he was a real character or not it must have been obvious to the passengers, that given that the plane was flying so low to the ground, the odds of getting the controls away from the hijackers without hitting the ground would be practically nil. It is true that they knew that by keeping still, they were probably going to die anyway, but nevertheless where there is life there is hope. They were still along way from Newark or Washington when they fought back. They could have hoped that maybe the hijackers could have chickened out, or maybe that given that the other planes had hit their targets, maybe this one did not have to. I could imagine any number of scenarios where you might hope to live. And it was no easy matter to attack these hijackers who were clearly going to fight back with knives- that is harder than dying in an instant. Once the passengers attacked, I have to believe that they did not have much hope of surviving much longer. I think that they were motivated by the idea that they were saving other american lives or american buidings, institutions, whatever. That would make them heroes in my book. And Chris, spare us the lecture about name calling, you have done plenty of that.

So Alex, let me get this straight, you become irrational and inhumane by fighting against the people who are trying to kill you? Give me a break................ So Alex, if someone were trying to strangle you, would you just let them finish the job out of fear of losing your humanity?

Shouldn't this be moved to the Politics Forum???

If you want exciting new jazz listen to the Paul Motian Trio. As for the the reissue issue, I don't feel bad buying them because a lot of "new" Jazz sounds like it could have been made years ago to me. That would include Marsalis, Redman, Hargrove, and countless others -all that supposedly new stuff.

"This is the Place" has now officially moved into to my permanent collection and is sitting between an Oregon cd and a Charlie Parker cd - now that is company!!!

Maybe this is what you are talking about Allen, but I found it frustating to wade through more than half of the book before he even gets to the Bebop Era- seems the emphasis slightly misplaced there. I was underwhelmed by the book in general.

I saw Jackie in clubs many times and once in a concert that was a tribute to him at Lincoln Center - that was in the 90s- he, and others played a number of Jackie's classic compositions including "Appointment in Ghana". I should say that all of the other times I saw him live were in the 90s too. For Lincoln Center - this was a great concert. The most recent gigs were those at the Vanguard and it seemed he was showing up every December to play with the Cedar Walton Trio. If I remember correctly it was a mixture of standards and some of his tunes. These were marvelous gigs. But I also saw him a few times in the mid 90s or so with Rene, his son, and a much younger band, when he had a flurry of new recordings out- Rhythm of the Earth or some such title like that. I was not crazy about this band and their material, but I always enjoyed his playing.

I got a second copy and the defect is still there. Nevertheless on balance I like the RVG over the 20bit K2 remasterings.

Anyone get the Lush Life cd by Coltrane from this series? I notice that on the first few seconds of the opening track (Like Someone In Love) there are some pops or clicks. Do I have a defective one or is this just that the RVG is more revealing?

Sad news indeed. One of my all time favorites

It's Time is just a great Jackie McLean release. and the Hill date is just superb, much better than many of the Hill reissue dates that have been released over the past years. I was despairing it would never come out. Like Lon, perhaps I would have preferred these to be RVGs.

Bertrand I was having similar problems playing it on my cd player - track 6 or 7 skipped. Looking closely at the disc, I notice a slight blur (maybe oil from pressing process?) After wiping the cd carefully - I got the skipping to stop.

thanks for all your helpful comments

Was the Lp version of this made using NONoise? Is the sound quality on the vinyl significantly better than the available CD?

Ok, I am a bit late to this party, having hoped that after your big splash playing live in NYC that the stores here in NYC might carry this cd. After several attempts to order the thing, I just decided to send JimA. the cold hard cash. Have listened now to the cd several times and I am really enjoying it. The first thing that struck me was how nicely balanced the talent in the band is and how everyone contributes and gets to be heard. All three take solos that I liked. Also I liked the writing on several of the original tunes, but in particular I liked "Smoking Section" and I think that is my favorite tune on the CD. I thought the intro to Tenderly by Joe was a fantastic change of pace from the frankly danceable tunes (making me think you guys must really really shine when heard live) that preceded it and then of course, your version of Tenderly- very different and engaging. Congratulations to all of you - I am really enjoying this one!

I love this album too. As I have said before, this is my favorite working band, so what's not to like? It's a live recording,the recording quality is excellent and the band is on. The tunes are the usual mixed bag of Monk tunes, a standard (Good Morning Heartache- in this case) and Motian's own quirky bunch of tunes. I think I see why he likes Monk, because Motian also like very simple melodies as Monk does. I am not sure how I would rate it against other Motian Trio albums, as I find it hard to decide between them, but I can't think of one that is clearly superior to this.

well FFA it looked like more than a discographry to me. Each album has at least several pages of commentary and I consider a discographry to be merely a list of all of the artist's albums. also while the number of albums discussed is substantial, I am not sure each one is discussed.

I saw it in paperback. the author is P. N. Wilson. written 2001 and appears to deal with just the music. anyone read it and have comments? It looks very good from a brief flip through the pages. why haven't I seen this before.